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You are here: Experts > Health/Fitness > Women's Health > Abortion - Pro Choice Views > Abortion
Expert: Danielle
Date: 5/13/2008
Subject: Abortion
Question
QUESTION: Hi there. I have a question regarding those people who are oppossed to abortion, who say that it is only acceptable when the woman's life is at risk or if she is raped. I can see the former, but if they truly believe that a fetus is a human life, why support it for rape? They say because the woman didn't have a choice. But that seems like a sly way of saying that the woman didn't choose to have sex or derive pleasure from the experience. I have noticed that these people are VERY anti- sex, against pleasure for women in particular. Because even if a woman is married, she is NOT supossed to use birth control or have an abortion. I know that I would not be able to enjoy sex if I were constantly having to worry about getting pregnant. Why can't these people grasp the concept that not ALL women want to have children, and that women are sexual just like men are, and that doesn't make us "irresponsible" or "selfish" or "whorish". Grrrr.
Tricia
ANSWER: Hi Tricia :)
Yeah, it's probably because she didn't CHOOSE to have the sex, so therefore she should have the choice to end the pregnancy. However, I've come across one too many of these people who are also against exceptions for rape, incest, and even the woman's life. I actually read one comment about how rape rarely results in pregnancy, because the cervix will only open up when the woman is sexually excited. Which is basically science from before the 1300's. Or, that the rape was traumatic enough, so why "kill the baby" and make it even worse? Apparently carrying a pregnancy 9 months then raising that child, a 24/7 reminder of the rapist and the horrendous event is all fine and dandy and won't ever result in psychological problems for the woman or the child.
Yes, they are very anti sex, especially women having sex, and heaven forbid she does it for pleasure, or recieves pleasure from it. It all links back to the idea that women should only have sex after marriage, and for the purpose of having children. The separation of sex from procreation is still very controversial for these people. Yep, and of course once she's married, she automatically wants tons of children. The reasoning is so illogical. You nailed it-women can now have a very, very good chance of having sex without the consequence of an unwanted pregnancy. But for these people, if you choose to have sex, you're choosing to have a child. This is what many of them think, and it's quite ridiculous in my opinion. And I totally agree, all I'd be able to think would be "is this going to result in a pregnancy? Am I going to have to deal with that?"
They just simply can't get the fact that there are women who just don't want or like children. It's an impossible idea to them. They want every baby to be born, even if that means it's unwanted, won't be cared for, and will likely live life that is pure hell. They care about the embryo/fetus, not the baby, and certainly not the woman. They see women as being the submissive partners to men, including sexually. The idea of women enjoying sex w/o consequence and having tons of it is horrifying to say the least to some of these people. And of course the woman is the slut, the man is the stud. I totally get where you're coming from, I feel completely the same way. It just comes down to old fashioned, romanticized ideals that these people have, and that they view women as tools to bear children and please their husbands, and women shouldn't have premarital sex, and should ALWAYS be willing to raise a child.
I hope I was able to answer any questions you may have had, although I just elaborated on what you said; you got everything perfectly. It's sexism, and it's absolutely unjustified, and we'll just have to let these people continue thinking this way, while more realistic people pave the way for a better future for women and children.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Wow, it is SO refreshing to have a conversation with someone who feels as strongly as I do about this issue. The mere thought of someone thinking they have the right to tell me what to do with my body is infuriating to me. Why don't they mind their own business?! I don't know what's worse. Male anti abortionists or female ones. How can a woman not support the right of other women to choose? And how dare a man, who will NEVER know what it's like to be in that situation judge a woman? Sorry for the little rant there. LOL
I got into a heated argument the other day with my sisters boyfriend. I can't stand him. He is such a chauvenist pig. He has already said that he expect Mary(who is quite bright) to give up her career when they get married and "make a nice home" for him and their children. Yuck.
Anyway, both of them are anti-abortion, and even volunteer for the local "Right to Life Association". We got onto the subject of rape, and they were like "well, I can totally understand why a woman would not want to keep that child, but she can just give it up for adoption. There are a lot of couples out there who can't have children of their own and want to adopt".
The adoption argument is such a popular one. How do you respond to that? I said it wasn't up to me or any other women to bear children for other people to adopt, and they called me "selfish" and "cold-hearted". Also, they always talk about all these couples who want to adopt. Why then are there so many children who don't have a good home? THat is what I want to know. Children who are shuffled from foster home to foster home, and never have any stability. Also, she would still have to go through the pregnancy and deliver the baby. That would be very traumatic. Their response was "it's only nine months".
And I said "what if she doesn't feel like she can give up her child, but she's poor and can't afford to provide for it". And they went on and on about all the resources that are out there(i.e. welfare, public housing, shelters, places where you can free food etc). But there are a lot of people living in poverty, and there are only so many resources to go around. And some people don't want to raise their kids on welfare. They want something better for them.
TO be honest, I feel like I lost the debate. They had a few of their friends there too, and they were all involved in anti-abortion stuff. And they were kind of intimidating. Me and my friend Kristen are pro-choice, and we were trying to get our points across, but they were being all mean. They said our arguments were "unoriginal" and "reduntant" and they had heard them all before. And that girls like us are growing up with a sense of entitlement(we want a career and everything) and don't think about anyone else. We are both about to graduate from high school, and both of us want to go on to college and have careers. To be honest, I don't even know if I want kids. And if I do, I only want one once I already have a career and everyhing.
Anyway, have you ever tried to discuss this with these people? They are really intimidating. This one guy was all red in the face and shouting at the top of his lungs. Talking about how the little baby is torn to pieces in the mother's womb. And he said that a fetus is just a tiny little person who hasn't been born yet. And no matter how bad his/her life may be they deserve a chance.
My boyfriend(whom I love very much) has been in and out of trouble with the law since he was THIRTEEN! He smokes, drinks heavily and has experimented with drugs. He's got a good heart deep down, but he jsut never had anyone who gave a damn about him. His mother abandoned him and his little brother when he was just two(she is a crack addict living in the projects now) and he was abused by his step-mother and molested by his mother's boyfriend. It's just awful. he is sitting in prison AGAIN now, and looking at two years. He is so smart and could have been somebody. I said that and my sister said "Well let's just be grateful his mother didn't think like you, or else he wouldn't even be here. Are you saying that he should have been aborted?"
It made me feel quite bad, but that wasn't what I was saying. I just meant that I think his life would have turned out differently if he had parents who cared about him, and grew up in a loving and stable home.
Anyway, I will stop rambling now. Hope you don't mind. i appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and answer my questions. Thanks.
Tricia
ANSWER: Always feel free to rant. I need to do it many times a week, just about abortion :P Yea, it's the "I'm not going to get an abortion, no other woman should either!" attitude. And it's dumb.
"It's only 9 months." Wow. 9 months of giving up your body, having a parasite suck up all your nutrients, and can cause you great physical and emotional pain. Oh, and if the child ever learns it was the product of rape? I don't think I would do too well if I were to be told that. 9 months is a long time. Almost a year, considering birth happens in the 10th month, if I'm not mistaken. All that time, just to go through the pain of labor, reliving your rape, then surrendering the baby to someone else. That's a whole lot for one woman to deal with. And if that baby isn't white, you can bet it's likeliness of getting adopted shoots WAAAY down. Maybe if/when your sister ever goes through a pregnancy, her opinion will shift. Even going through a pregnancy you really want can be painful and difficult. If people refuse to see just how much of a violation it is to force someone to give up their body, when we don't even require inmates on death row to give blood, then i don't know what further I can say. The psychology behind a victim's experience is complex, I don't know too much, but living with a constant reminder? That's disgusting to force another to go through such a thing.
Yes. Welfare isn't handed out like candy, which is what a lot of anti-choicers would like to think. Those on welfare live below the poverty line. The most anti-abortion people are also those taking away financial resources form women who would like to keep the pregnancy. The care about the fetus/embryo, not the baby. Like Bush's voting against the child health care bill. How much can you like children if you're going to deny them health care? But yeah, those resources are sparse and hard to come by. And definitely, many would rather raise their kid in a more financially stable situation.
I admire you and your friend for arguing back; it's an intimidating and difficult subject to debate on, especially against a whole group. Those are some sexist views they have, Just because they want to be financially dependent on their husband for the rest of their life doesn't mean you want to. Also, when both parents work, the standard of living goes up, therefore giving a better life to the kid(s).
I used to try my best to steer clear of debating with these people, because it's such an emotional issue. I always feel like they want me to be property, that I'm nothing more than a uterus to them. But as I learn more and more about abortion, pro-choice laws, birth control, i find arguing back easier. Like when you learn that the states with the most anti-abortion laws have the highest infant mortality rates, you got something. But yeah, I guess they're just never going to look deeper into the issue. And the fetus being "torn apart"? In late term abortions, yes, they are taken apart, so it won't trigger the woman into labor, but 90% of abortions are done by sucking out the tissue. I think it's just them not even taking a minute to think about the woman's life. She's the one who will care for the baby, raise it, provide for it. If they want unwanted to children to be born, then I expect to see each and every single one of them adopting children, and many of them.
That's horrible, what happened to your boyfriend. He was born into an awful situation, and the odds were definitely against him. I agree, if he had a mother, or parents who wanted him and cared for him, he'd have a lot easier of a time.Instead of being born into a family where he was horribly abused and mistreated he would have been born into one where he would have gotten a better chance at starting off well. I hope he does ok, and is able to overcome what's happened to him, although i can't even imagine having to go through so much.
Thanks for writing me! it's always excellent to have someone who shares these views, and it's great to be able to talk with you. Always feel free to message me, I'm here. And I hope everything goes well for you and your boyfriend. If you ever need to rant, I'm here :)
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thank you for inviting me to write again. It is nice to talk to someone who shares similar views, and to learn from them. You are obviously very knowledgeable about this issue. I bet you wouldn't have gotten stumped like I did. I hate that that happened. It's just that no matter what I said they had a comeback. Sigh.
For example, when I said I thought it would be hard to give up my baby and consign it to an uncertain future, their response was that now we have open adoption, where the birth mother can still remain a part of the child's life.
Or when I brought up the fact that women could have serious health related problems or even die from pregnnacy/childbirth they said it was extreamely rare for that to happen in this day and age, and even had statistics to back it up. Do you know what some of the possible risks are? I brought up things like nausea and vomiting, sore feet, back pain, having to urinate more frequently because the growing fetus puts pressure on the bladder etc. But they said all of those things were just minor inconveniences, and that one year is nothing compared to a lifetime.
Now, I am diabetic. I have been since I was just a little girl. and I have heard that diabetics are at a much higher risk from dying, but they denied that too. And to be honest, I couldn't really refute it because I don't know much about it. Just that my doctor said diabetic women have to be monitored more carefully.
I also brought up the issue of post-partum depression, and how women who are already mentally ill or prone to depression are at a higher risk. And they were like "well, there is medication for that". My mother happens to suffer from bi-polar disorder, and I remember lots of times when we were growing up when she expected us to stay in our rooms and be quiet, so she could sleep. We weren't even allowed to have friends over. When she went through her depressive states. I don't blame her. I know it's not her fault. She is sick through no fault of her own. but it wasn't much of a childhood, and the doctors gave her tons of meds and she even saw a therapist. the point being that meds don't always work. They are so idealistic and naive.
My FAVORITE was when my friend brought up the issue of domestic violence, and how pregnant women were more likely to be killed. You know what the response was? Well, she could just leave the state and start a new life. Of course. It's the woman who should have to leave the only home she's ever known, her family, her friends, her job etc After all it's her fault she is being abused. Grrrr.
I would love for us to be able to discuss this further. This is an issue that I am passionate about and would like to learn more about. Next time I will be much better prepared.
I am just curious as to how you got interested in/involved with the pro-choice movement? I am thinking that I might want to get involved somehow. Maybe volunteer with PP or something.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. I appreciate it.
Tricia
Answer
I've definitely tried to learn as much as I can. And when you're surrounded by people putting your views down, it's incredibly easy to get stumped like that. I do it all the time, especially when I get all flustered.
Even if it was an open adoption, I, personally, would still feel depressed over it, I assume. You have this pregnancy for 9 months, then give it to another couple/person to raise, that's a huge deal, and many women are sad over the decision for a long time.
They're wrong. Complications from childbirth/pregnancy resulting in serious conditions or death are actually not uncommon enough. And the extremity to which a woman has these conditions varies, so for them to say it's always a minor inconvenience is just ignorant. For example, when my mother was pregnant with me, she had terrible fatigue, and would have to take 15 minute breaks during work and nap in her car. Some women have horrible sicknesses. Sometimes the fetus will die while in the uterus, and a late term procedure is needed so that the woman will not get an infection. The maternal death rate is at it's highest right now in years, I believe. It's low, but it's still a problem. And infant mortality rates aren't good as well. Sometimes, while birthing the placenta, it will rupture, resulting in internal bleeding. If it can't be stopped/the uterus isn't removed, the woman will die. There's more. And post-partum disorders are horrible too. Women wanting to kill themselves and/or the baby, feeling terrible...it's really scary stuff. Pregnancy and childbirth are usually no easy task.
Yes, both you and the baby would be at a higher risk. If you were to not keep extremely tight control of your blood sugar, you'd be at risk for miscarriage, high blood pressure, which can lead to premature births (not good for the baby), and could cause seizures, or a stroke, as a blood clot in the brain, during the woman's labor/delivery. The risks can be lowered, but it's definitely harder for the woman with diabetes. So, your doctor would be monitoring extra carefully, definitely.
So true. There's no magic pill for any mental illness, and sometimes even the hardest efforts to help can lead to little improvement. And postpartum depression affects not only the woman, but those around her. They have obviously very little knowledge.
That is just disgusting. Because it's so easy to just up and leave! There's so much more to it than that! It's a psychological thing. She'll be abused, but then the guy will treat her like a queen, then it will cycle all over again. And leaving is a hard thing to do; you're attached, and you may have nowhere to go. And if the woman is financially dependent on the guy, what do they expect her to do? And with a pregnancy to take care of, it just gets more complicated. Leaving the state? What if you have no money, no car, don't know where to go? Or hell, maybe the woman doesn't want to leave where she lives, and she damn well shouldn't have to. It's not her fault for being abused; she's the victim, and she needs all the help she can receive.
It'd be wonderful to talk with you more! And it's such an interesting thing to learn about, there's so much! It seems like I learn something new every day. And after reading the facts, it's so hard to fathom as to why someone would be against a woman's right to choose.
I think I was in 8th grade, and I was researching abortion, and when I was reading the facts about it, I just became so aware and convinced that women DO need that right, and it's their decision and no one else's. I think from there, i got more and more into it. And it started to seem more real to me too. And thinking of my sister, and how awful of a position she'd be in if she were forced into having a child (not a position she was ever in, that I'm aware of)...like, thinking about how hard she's worked to get to where she is. And then learning more and more about the two abortions my mother had previous to me and my sister being conceived/born. Knowing that we were wanted children was great too. I also read some blogs daily, that deal alot with reproductive rights. Those teach me SO MUCH. I also joined this community on livejournal.com, abortioninfo, where there's so much info and stories. I'd like to get more actively involved, I too am thinking of volunteering at my local PP over the summer.
Thanks for talking with me! It's great to be able to just rant and discuss this issue so openly :)
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