Expert: Joseph Lee O. - 6/22/2008

Question
QUESTION: Hi-
      I was wondering if you had more to add to pg. 21 of the Big Book where
the real alcoholic is introduced. I'm on the "he begins to loose all control of
his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink" part.
      At this state, I comfortably estimate about 10-16 times where I have
sworn off alcohol for good, yet get drunk within a week with a mid to higher
tolerance to higher powered cannibus smoked in a must have kind of way.
Not a full day able to hold to the NO MORE drinking notes I would put in my
wallet...
      When I do drink, I don't remember more than a coupple times I would
have 1-3 or MAYBEE 4. I would get drinking without really remembering to
ever of moderating it. The craving, yes. Have that after about 3 or so.
      I have done that controlled drinking, over to the nearest bar room deal.
Had ONE. Left with the notion I was therefore able to control my drinking.
Got some pot- mental twists of its going to be different, here's how--- the
managing and plotting in full effect. Ended up drunk within a week or two.
New I was powerless over stopping. No more notes in the wallet- got med
cannibus card- 45 days from the initial bar room to complete defeat- back in
AA since December 24, 2007. Now- the cycle of swearing off to end up
drinking again to utter I CAN NOT DO THIS ANY MORE is a start to finish
cycle over and over and over about 12-15 to 20-30 to 40 times, I don't know.
Bottom line, "once he starts to drink." part and "begins to loose all control of
his liquor consumption," part, "all control" being moderating and stopping,
period, stopping on the wagon type stopping, swearing of forever type
stopping? And moderating being undesired really- I don't really ever in the
last year or two ever remember desiring or trying to moderate too much. I
just drank and drank more and drove and got drugs and got into troubble
basically. Would swear off, "just smoke pot" control deal, even then, 2 weeks
was my record. Or without access to the pot one time, got pritty damn drunk
in two hours, got access to pot, broken hand, passed out in bed.
      So the "begins to loose all control of his liquor consumption, once he
starts to drink." means what to you? I really relate to more of the real
alcoholic part, just this one part up above there, what does that mean to
you?


ANSWER: Greetings to you, Keith.

Even still after these past twenty-five-plus years of being a diligent student and advocate of “Alcoholics Anonymous”, the book, nothing gets me more fired up than talking about what we can all read in it.  So, I thank you so very much for writing.

Something that might prove helpful to you here is to recognize “real alcoholic” (page 21) in light of the physical aspect of alcoholism, and to recognize “true alcoholic” (page 22) in light of the mental aspect of alcoholism.  I do not know how clearly Bill W. might have ever distinguished “real” from “true” in his own mind, and “real” and “true” can appear interchangeable while reading the book.  However, some of Bill’s words nevertheless do reflect my own experience with both “real” and “true” alcoholism ... and I will try to explain as I continue here.

For the sake of some overall perspective in relation to your own thoughts and questions about loss of *all* control, here is an indispensable excerpt from page 30 (Step One):

“Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics ... bodily and mentally different ...
“... lost the ability to control our drinking ... [and] Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
“... no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic.” (page 30)

For the most part, I believe the descriptive “he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink” statement on page 21 is about the above what Dr. Silkworth calls “the [physical] phenomenon of craving [that] develops” after the real alcoholic takes even as few as one or two drinks:

“... drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control ...
“All [real alcoholics] have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of [a physical] craving [beyond all mental control].  This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity.  It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated ...” (“The Doctor’s Opinion”)

Along that line, you have shared about having already found yourself in that category:

>> I don't remember more than a couple times I would have 1-3 or MAYBEE 4 ... The [physical phenomenon of] craving, yes. Have that after about 3 or so.

So then, the first element of Step One is about recognizing and admitting “to G-d, to ourselves, and to others” that we are “real” alcoholics, meaning powerless over alcohol after we take a drink.  That is far from being the entire story, of course, and the worst, as such, is actually yet to come.  But for now, it is our awareness of a complete loss of control once we begin drinking and the related consequence of death following along that can inspire a desire to stop ...

... but now we come to the alcoholic’s “true” dilemma:

“... the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around.  Yet early next morning he [nevertheless] searches madly for the bottle he misplaced the night before ...
“This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary.  But this description should identify him roughly.
“Why does he behave like this?  If hundreds of experiences have shown him that [even just] one drink means another debacle with all its attendant suffering and humiliation, why is it he takes that one [or his next first] drink?” (page 22)

You have asked:

>> "all control" being moderating and stopping, period, stopping on the wagon type stopping, swearing of forever type stopping?

As it is shared within the book, I believe “all control” relates mostly to not being able to control how much we drink – our inability to moderate – after we get started.  Still, or at least in principle, the same can apply to the matter of our inability to stop drinking altogether:

“The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink [or ‘all control’ even when sober].  Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent.  We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago.  We are without defense [and out of control] against the first drink.” (page 24)

Along that kind of “true” alcoholic dilemma, you have written:

>> I comfortably estimate about 10-16 times where I have sworn off alcohol for good, yet get drunk within a week ...
>> Not a full day able to hold to the NO MORE drinking notes I would put in my
wallet...
>> I would get drinking without really remembering to ever of moderating it.
>> I have done that controlled drinking, over to the nearest bar room deal [and left after one] with the notion I was therefore able to control my drinking.
>> Got some pot ... the [insane or delusional] managing and plotting [for the desired effect] in full effect ...
>> Now- the cycle of swearing off to end up drinking again to utter I CAN NOT DO THIS ANY MORE is a start to finish cycle over and over and over ...

Yes, that is both “real” and “true”, and just as Dr. Silkworth has described:

“[Alcoholic men] and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by [even just a few drinks of] alcohol.  The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious [by causing them to lose all control once they begin], they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false.  To them, their alcoholic [dependent-upon-the-effect-of-alcohol] life seems the only normal one.  [While sober, dry, or not drinking, they] are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks - drinks which they see others taking with impunity.  After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again.  This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.” (“Doctor’s Opinion”)

So then, and while recognizing the non-fixable loss of control we experience because of some abnormal body chemistry that takes place once we begin drinking, it can also be said we “lost all control” even over the first drink or joint of a spree after we had initially discovered the pleasing effect we could get and we began obsessing on the thought of again experiencing that effect ... then additionally obsessing on the desire or thought of again drinking in moderation.  What a mess we are while still in our natural states, eh?!

You have written:

>> I don't really ever in the last year or two ever remember desiring or trying to moderate too much. I just drank and drank more and drove and got drugs and got into trouble basically. Would swear off, "just smoke pot" control deal, even then, 2 weeks was my record. Or without access to the pot one time, got pritty damn drunk in two hours, got access to pot, broken hand, passed out in bed.

Along with all of the information about the physical and mental aspects of chronic alcoholism, there is yet a third element in Step One:

“Leaving aside the drink question, they tell why living was so unsatisfactory ...
“We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people ...” (pages 51-52)
“[We] ... could not manage our own lives” [into ‘happy, joyous and free’ (page 133)].” (page 60)

You have asked:

>> So the "begins to loose all control of his liquor consumption, once he
starts to drink." means what to you?

Looking back, I lost the power of choice concerning the first drink immediately after the very first time I ever drank.  For me, the effect of alcohol was like “bottled magic”, and I immediately became obsessed with trying to *always* feel like it made me feel.  As I understand things, that is “true” alcoholism ...

... but the reason I eventually developed a desire to stop drinking altogether is because I also happen to be a “real” alcoholic who ultimately discovered he had lost all control of his actual consumption every time he began drinking.

>> I really relate to more of the real alcoholic part, just this one part up above there, what does that mean to you?

I hope I have answered your question.  Along with a physical “loss of control” that developed and grew while I was drinking, that “loss of control” also means the initial effect of alcohol had completely overpowered any “choice” I had ever had in relation to drinking at all ... and we can find an interesting statement along that line in the first paragraph of Step One in “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions:”

“... glass in hand, we have warped our minds into such an obsession for destructive drinking that only an act of Providence can remove it from us.”

Both mentally and physically, then, I lost all control both over and of my drinking by drinking, and that ultimately proved I had never been able to manage my own life in the first place.

Please know you are always welcomed to write,

Joseph Lee O. (10/22/82)
Email: leejosepho@hotmail.com
Forum: http://xsorbit28.com/users5/restored/ (new)


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you for that response!

I don't have much time to write, but real quick, is that your sobriety date
10/22/82 ? Also, do you mind if I write to you using your hotmail address
shown at the end of that response?



ANSWER: Greetings again, Keith.

Yes, that is my sobriety date, and yes, you are welcomed to write using my hotmail address.  Also, and if you or anyone else might be interested, I could really use some help getting some activity going on the forum: http://xsorbit28.com/users5/restored/ .

My first sponsor was a man who had been helped by another man who had passed along a very healthy dependence upon knowing and doing the things written in "Alcoholics Anonymous", the book, and he also made very clear the importance of reading the book to keep from being harmed by bad information in today's AA.

Peace to you,

Joseph Lee O.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Joseph-
      Good morning! Now, on that physical aspect we've written about latley,
do you have any experience with the non-AA related "proof" the gentlemen
known to me as "Joe and Charlie" have to offer us as an explaination of our
phenomenon of craving in reference to the metabolic and physiological "truth"
they seem to me to claim to be scientifically proven?

How the acetone, or acetic acid, (heard from a questionable Internet source
the acetic acid being used as the chemical) that stays in our body for a much
longer period of time, as acetone, (compaired to the nine out of ten people
that have a "normal" reaction to alcohol, therefore being non-allergic people
that have sufficient quantity and quality of the enzymes produced by the liver
and the pancreaus to metabolize alcohol into water, sugar, and carbon
dioxide at a rate of APROXIMATLY 1oz. every hour)
Goes to support that, supposably, today they have proven (this I wonder if
you could help me out with, or know some one to ask, or somewhere to go
look) that acetone ingested into the human system that remains there for an
apprieiciable period of time, will create "an actual, physical, craving for more
of the same." [quoates in reference to the Joe and Charlie cd, detailed
reference bellow]

Also, how alcohol is a destroyer of human tissue, that results in the
destruction of the liver and the pancreaus, which Joe and Charlie say," today
they know that the liver and they pancreaus are the two organs of the body
that produce the enzymes nesseccary to metabolize alcohol." So as I drank
more, the liver and the pancreaus became more damaged, enzyme
production went down, and the craving becomes harder, the drinking
becomes harder.  This Joe and Charlie say, pritty much as a direct quoate.
Joe and Charlie go on to further say, "[ALSO] probably due to the ageing
factor. We know today that as we get older the body begins to shut down on
the production of everything. If I take a drink today, after (x) number years of
sobriety, I wouldn't start were I left off several years ago, the craving would
be harder, the drinking would be harder, and the troubble would be harder,"
Joe McC and Charlie P say on their "A New Way of Life," 9 cd set, disc 2 -
track 5, about 4:00 minutes into the track. The other information above here,
a bit before that on the cds.

Joe and Charlie go on to, roughly, say, "Not only am I in the Grips of an
actual physical illness - but it is a progressive illness, that always gets worse
as time goes by."

This in respect to, what I understand to be, the ONE side of the illness, the
physical aspect.

So do you know if this is true, or could you elaborate on the validity of Joe
and Charlie's explaination, which SEEMS to make good sense to me! Yet, I
feel uncomfortable just taking their word for it, so-to-speak, as being actually
scientifically proven as a fact that, "yes, this is how the alcoholics body
processes alcohol, these enzymes are produced by the pancreaus and the
liver which in turn are the organs responsible for the breakdown of alcohol
and that these two organs produced enzymes do create a level of acetone in
the alcoholic that is a result of those enzymes being in insufficient quantity
and quality, and the acetone is responsible for that physical craving that will
only increase as time goes on because of the truth that alcohol does in fact
destroy human tissue, primarily the liver and the pancreaus, and that the liver
and the panceaus do naturally deteriorate, even without the presence of an
alcoholics frequently high level of alcohol in their bodies." This seems to not
only back up what the book "Alcoholics Anomymous" says, it seems to
support modern understandings of metabolism that could have changed Dr.
Silkworth's "phenomenon" of craving into a "known fact about" the craving.

All this seems to go to looking at the real alcoholic's description on pg. 21 of
Alcoholics Anonymous, in the light of the physical aspect of my disease.

This description that Joe and Charlie came out with, which is hopefully
embedded in substantially proven physiological truths (?!!), has seemed to
help me to accept and understand why, and/or how it is that I would
personally have the phenomenon of craving, in current recollection, as being
present around those 3-4 drinks part, not just that initial one drink (that
happened... very rairley/super seldom), where it is SEEMING to be the point
at which I did SEEM to loose the ability to "moderate" (I don't really
remember desiring to moderate it thow?!), combined with the inability to
"stop", seems to equal begining to loose "all control" of my liquor
consumption, once I started to drink [as I currently seem to see "all contol" in
the context of pg.21, in respect to the similarity between the three, rather
short paragraphs, starting on page 20, going over to pg.21, describing the
three types of drinkers, as having the ability to "take it or leave it alone," in
the first little paragraph, then in the second little paragraph of the three,
having the ability to "ALSO stop or moderate," (which both those two
paragraphs show "take it or leave it alone" and then "stop or moderate" at the
end of the paragraphs, like a summary or conclusion as to what it seems to
me to be the information the, from what I understand to be, writer/40 other
members of Alcoholics Anonymous editors were trying to convey to others
interested in their precise directions as to what to do to recover) seems to
me that in the same "summary/conclusion" spot in the third little paragraph,
describing the real alcoholic, there is the phrase "all control", which further
seems to be to me currently, that stopping or moderating is what the one,
two, and three little paragraphs are talking about, with the first two having the
ability to, and the third, the real alcoholic, beggining to not have the ability to
stop and moderate, with the phrase "the ability to stop AND moderate"
interchangeable with the phrase "all control" if one literally plugs that phrase
in, it seems to make sense to me, that COULD be what a simple definition of
"all control" could be in the context of the real alcoholic's description Ive been  
working on latley. (I dont recall ever really desiring to moderate when I would
"cross" the 3-4 drink part, which in retrospect could have been a desire of
one who had not began to loose all control of his liquor consumption, once
he started to drink?)]. My roomate, who is a friend of Bill W. as well,
seemingly related to my experience as being true in his own drinking career
about the phenomenon of craving, looking back, coming about in current
recolection around that 3-4 drink mark, EARLY on in a drinking beggining
after, for me, going "back out". After that, the first two (maybee three) times I
drank again in succession to initially leaving a sobriety stent in Alcoholics
Anonymous,  that is when I don't ever seem to recall the desire to moderate,
when I drank, I drank with recollections of more, another, take some for the
road, get enough for the trip, or a other one after one 3 minutes ago outside
bar-b-que' ing or out side having a cigarette. Then usually, if not always,
wake up still seeming to crave another if I was not too sick. Even sick feeling,
try and get a cracker or a peice of bread down, vodka or whatever
shot/glass, stand in shower or out back and use whatever trick I could to try
and keep that sucker down... Cold sweats and all... Eugheuk

Well, I have been typing this offs a cell phone. Hopefully you would please
take a look at all this. I could review what's been written after I send this and
maybee I will have more to add. Hopefully you can help me see what you
see and have experience or whatever with. Your last response I've consider
to be a God shot of sorts- Thank you! About time for the 5:30 meeting :)

-Keith P.  

Answer
Greetings again, Keith.

Yes, I have heard of the acetaldehyde THIQ factor, and I believe you and I are in good company on that matter:

“The doctor's theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us.  As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little.  But as ex-problem drinkers, we can say his explanation makes good sense.  It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account.” (Bill W. in “The Doctor’s Opinion”)

You have written:

>> this I wonder if you could help me out with ... that acetone ingested into the human system that remains there for an appreciable period of time, will create "an actual, physical, craving for more of the same."

I believe it is actually the combination of acetaldehyde in the bloodstream and dopamine in the brain (naturally) that produces tetrahydroisoquinoline (THIQ), an addictive alkaloid (previously known to be found in the brains of dead heroin addicts and) that accumulates in the brain forever and serves as a “trigger” that again sets off (and can even increase) the physical craving each time another drink enters the bloodstream.

>> Also, how alcohol is a destroyer of human tissue ...
>> So as I drank more, the liver and the pancreas became more damaged, enzyme
production went down, and the craving becomes harder, the drinking becomes harder ...

I believe that is accurate.

>> "[ALSO] probably due to the ageing factor ... (Charlie and Joe)
>> "If I take a drink today, after (x) number years of sobriety, I wouldn't start were I left off several years ago, the craving would be harder, the drinking would be harder, and the trouble would be harder ..."

Personally, I am not as convinced about that.  Rather, I believe that is a social-engineering scare tactic.  Overall, I am more inclined to believe we actually would essentially pick up where we left off, but that the progression of damage would then soon escalate more rapidly than it would have in days past.

>> So do you know if this is true ...

I have read some of the counter-arguments, and those theories offer absolutely no explanation whatsoever for my past out-of-control drinking during which I often stared at the bottle and wondered what in the world was going on.  No matter what I tried, I simply could not drink like some close and normal friends of mine.  So then, I consider Virginia Davis’ discovery of THIQ in the brains of alcoholic cadavers to be valid science in the face of her challenger’s mere philosophical and psycho-babble arguments.  Where Virginia (as through Charlie and Joe) corroborates what Dr. Silkworth had suggested long ago, folks on the other side simply argue against *any* kind of idea that the real alcoholic truly is “bodily and mentally different from his fellows.”

>> I feel uncomfortable just taking their word for it, so-to-speak, as being actually scientifically proven ...

For myself, my own actual experience bears all that out even if nobody else anywhere ever happens to agree.  For ultimately, see, and no matter what the actual physiology either might or might not be: I first had a desire to drink (as at the beginning of my drinking), then my out-of-control drinking drove me to have a desire to again drink safely ... and when I could not get back to doing that, I soon developed a desire to stop altogether.

Pretty simple, eh?!  We each get to try to do as we please for just as long as we can stand it, then we get an opportunity to become spiritually sane.

Joseph Lee