Expert: Jurriaan Plesman, Nutritional Psychotherapist - 4/23/2004

Question
Good Evening Doctor Plesman

Thank you so much for your advice concerning the abusive member in my CoDA group.

The information has been most helpful and I will certainly follow through with it.  

Although, I am fearful that if he realises it is me who instigates the action toward him, that he will be waiting for my in a dark alley one night and bash me up.  I realise this is my fear and I can take causious action.

In your advice you mention :
"The ideal situation is if he is under the supervision of a Probation or Parole Officer under a Court order."

This gentleman has shared that he is preparing to go before the court again in the next few weeks for the rape charge.  

And he also shares that the police are aware of him and his behaviour and movements and on occasion "pick him up to talk to him for no apparent reason" are the words he uses.  

Thank you again for your advice it has certainly been most helpful.

Regards
Janie D
CoDA
Brisbane


-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Good Evening Doctor Plesman

Re: Abusive Member

I am asking from a different perspective than from my problem.  

The problem is an alcoholic (ex drug dependent) abusive member who has a prison record that I am asking for your guidance from your experience on please, who attends my Codependents Anonymous 12 step group.

I'm Janie, Secretary/Treasurer/Publicity officer of the Tuesday Night CoDA meeting in Brisbane for 3 years and sober for 3 years, and also member of ACOA, AA, EA, OA.

I am familiar generally with the information in the  website www hypoglycemia asn au and in particular the psychotherapy course.
 
We have a verbal abusive member in the group, who comes to meetings smelling of alcohol, and we have evidence he steals the consumables from our tea and coffee resources.  He never takes responsibility in the group e.g. service work, and has been coming for over 6 months.

He has years of prison convictions for violent behaviour, and now has found a spiritual master, but is still acting out in his alcohol addiction, and has a lot of anger.  He has shared of his drug and alcohol addiction and attending NA as well.
 
This gentleman has been displaying abusive verbal behaviour in the Tuesday night meetings, for example: criticising and running down the meeting format and putdowns directed to other members.  The putdowns were directed to five members on individual situations and four of them have not returned to the meetings, two have shared it was due to his behaviour.  

He has been verbally abusive to me and I have noticed it is getting worse.  Two months ago there were 10 members, last night there were only three members (two women and him).  I am not sure if this is a direct reflection of this gentleman's behaviour, although in that time the four members have left due to his behaviour.
 
I have tonight decided to not go to CoDA on Tuesday night until he leaves the group, and have advise the other member of my decision.  Or my other decision is to close the meeting altogether as there are only 3 members and if I leave then there will only be 2, and reopen the meeting in a month's time, hoping that he would have left by then.  
 
As a woman I do not feel I would put myself in the position of confronting him, as he has told me that  he is very close to acting out violently due to his level of anger.  We are on level 3 of the building and the only members on that floor from 7pm-9pm, should he decide to act out violently, there would be no way of getting help from the security on the ground floor.
 
I have put a lot of planning and development into publicity for the group to encourage new members. If there are new members coming into the group his behaviour is very off putting, as we find a lot of women come to the meeting.  

Other members have stated to me that they would attend the other meeting of CoDA on Monday's and not attend the Tuesday night so as to avoid this gentleman.
 
I have been in groups where his verbal abusive behaviour has caused a upheaval in the group e.g. EA and ACOA (in ACOA there was a group conscious and he was confronted about his behaviour and he did not come back; the difference is these two groups have a greater number of members and including male members).  His behaviuor when males are in the group is considerably more subdued and on occasions he sits detached from the group as if in fear of the other males in the room.  AND confidentially he has shared that the members in NA have said they don't like him.  

I feel that he comes to our meeting because he has got no where else to go, I could be wrong here, and I also feel that he is abusing our group, by stealing and because we are all females, and we won't stand up to him and his abuse.  He is not working the 12 step program of CoDA and just comes and shares about his spiritual master and his behaviour does not show in any way that he is on the 12 step program.
 
I am concerned for the serenity and safety of the CoDA group and its members.  I have sort advice from the World Service Office in CoDA and they have suggested following the group conscious guidelines of the 12 steps which it suggests talking to him about his behaviour, as there are only myself an another woman.  

I feel that the 12 step approach would not mean anything to him, because from seeing his pattern of his past behaviour his anger escalates and he becomes even more abusive.  I feel there is something more sinister perhaps a mental disorder that is evident in this gentleman.  This observation is after seeing his behaviour in other groups EA, ACOA, AA and comparing it to other male members in AA who are not so abusive and angry like this gentleman.  I have never met someone so angry and aggressive in his behaviour, and he has a very dark sinister energy around him just from being in his presence.

I have done a course in victims of domestic violence and read a lot of material on battered wife syndrome, etc and am aware of some of the abusive behaviours.

We would appreciate your feedback concerning our situation.
 
Regards
Janie D
CoDA
Brisbane Tuesday Night 7:00 pm
Australia




Answer -
Thank you writing to me. I am familiar with your situation because I used to run psychotherapy groups for alcoholics, drug addicts and other mentally disturbed disturbed behaviour.

If such a person were spotted in our group he was asked to leave and not come back before he is ready to accept psychotherapy. It is a good idea to have a mixed group of males and females, for just that situation. If the majority of group members would vote for his expulsion, than that is it. You cannot do therapy with anybody who does not loom for help. If he is not happy with the group it is up to him  to leave, not for the group to leave. He appears to be highly manipulative using possible violence as his stick. This is not acceptable. Perhaps you could ask members of AA to visit your groups to specially deal with this character.  Your group is about helping one another to help yourself. He is obviously not ready for treatment or help.

If he steals he would simply be charged by the police. I may be an idea to have a talk to the local police about his stealing behaviour and potential violent behaviour, so that if any thing were to happen the police would be prepared to act swiftly. Violent people or potentially violent people must be stopped, not only for your own sake but for the sake of other people as well.
The ideal situation is if he is under the supervision of a Probation or Parole Officer under a Court order.

I can see that this is a difficult situation, but I would seek the assistance of other people friendly to the object of AA movement.

I hope I have been of some use, and I am sorry I am not of greater assistance.

Jurriaan Plesman
Free Web Site at:
www.hypoglycemia.asn.au

Answer
Well, try to get him under the supervision of a Probation and Parole Officer. He obviously needs treatment, but unfortunately you cannot lead a horse to water and make it drink.

As to his rape charges, this too can be treated if he wants to. See:

"Sexual Abuser and Treatment"

at:

http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/psychotherapy/sexual_abuse.html

Jurriaan Plesman
Free Web Site
www.hypoglycemia.asn.au