Expert: Maria - 7/22/2006

Question
Hi Maria,
In notes to his famous Romanes lecture, T.H. Huxley quoted the ancient Stoic, Seneca, 6 times. My Latin is awful - this is the best I can do.


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"quem in hoc mundo locum deus obtinet, hunc in homine animus: quod est illic materia, id nobis corpus est."

That which in this universe occupies God's place, this in man the mind: that which is in that place material, it to us is the body.

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"Corpora nostra rapiuntur fluminum more, quidquid vides currit cum tempore; nihil ex his quce videmus manet. Ego ipse dum loquor mutari ista, mutatus sum. Hoc est quod ait Heraclitus ‘In idem flumen bis non descendimus.’ Manet idem fluminis nomen, aqua transmissa est. Hoc in amne manifestius est quam in homine, sed nos quoque non minus velox cursus praeter vehit."

Our bodies are carried off in the manner of rivers, which you see flows with time; we see nothing from these remain. I myself while I speak about changing, am changed. This is with regard to what Heraclitus has said ‘In the same the river we have not descended the same people.’ The name of the river remains the same, the water flows.
(Last sentence is too confusing)

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"Si enim ullum aliud est bonum quam honestum, sequetur nos aviditas vitae aviditas rerum vitam instruentium: quod est intolerabile infinitum, vagum."

If indeed any other is good which is respected, the desire of life the desire of things will follow us building life: which is unable to endure infinity, wandering.

LOL. That's nonsensical.
The last 3 I make even less sense of.

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"Salva autem esse societas nisi custodia et amore partium non possit."

"Multa bona nostra nobis nocent, timoris enim tormentum memoria reducit, providentia anticipat. Nemo tantum praesentibus miser est."

"Natura, inquit, haec mihi praestat. Non intelligis te, quum hoc dicis, mutare Nomen Deo? Quid enim est aliud Natura quam Deus, et divina ratio, toti mundo et partibus eius inserta?  Quoties voles tibi licet aliter hunc auctorem rerum nostrarum compellare, et Jovem illum optimum et maximum rite dices, et tonantem, et statorem:  qui non, ut historici tradiderunt, ex eo quod post votum susceptum acies Romanorum fugientum stetit, sed quod stant beneficio eius omnia, stator, stabilitorque est: hunc eundem et fatum si dixeris, non mentieris, nam quum fatum nihil aliud est, quam series implexa causarum, ille est prima omnium causa, ea qua caeterae pendent."

(What's "fugientum"? A misspelling?)
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Many thanks for any help.

Answer
Hello,

here are the correct translations you need.
Hope this can be helpful to you.
Best,
Maria
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-1st.PASSAGE from Seneca, Epistulae Morales (Letters) Book VII, Ep. 65, paragraph. 24:
"quem in hoc mundo locum deus obtinet, hunc in homine animus: quod est illic materia, id nobis corpus est."
TRANSLATION:
”What (QUEM) place ( LOCUM) God occupies in this universe, this place the mind occupies (understood in Latin) in man: what is there physical substance, this is the body to us”.


-2nd.PASSAGE from  Seneca, Epistulae Morales, Book  VI, Ep. 58, paragraph 23-24:
"Corpora nostra rapiuntur fluminum more, quidquid vides currit cum tempore; nihil ex his quae videmus manet. Ego ipse dum loquor mutari ista, mutatus sum. Hoc est quod ait Heraclitus ‘In idem flumen bis non descendimus.’ Manet idem fluminis nomen, aqua transmissa est. Hoc in amne manifestius est quam in homine, sed nos quoque non minus velox cursus praetervehit."
TRANSLATION:
"Our bodies are carried off in the manner of river waters; all what you see flows with time; nothing of what we see remains.I myself  am changing, while I speak about changing. This is what Heraclitus says:’We  cannot go into the same river twice'. The name of the river remains the same, but the water flows. This is more easily seen in a river that in a man, but a not less swift stream carries  us away”.

-3rd.PASSAGE from  Seneca, Epistulae Morales, Book  IX, Ep. 76, paragraph 24:
"Si ullum aliud est bonum quam honestum, sequetur nos aviditas vitae, aviditas rerum vitam instruentium, quod est intolerabile, infinitum, vagum".
TRANSLATION:
“If indeed there is some other good in addition to  honesty, it will follow that  we will seize with longing for living and eagerness of the goods that make life beautiful, but these sensations  are intolerable, unbounded and uncertain”.


-4th.PASSAGE from Seneca, De Ira( on Anger) ,Book II, chapter 31:
“Salva autem esse societas nisi custodia et amore partium non possit."
TRANSLATION:
“The safety of society depends upon  respect and reciprocal devotion.” [Literally,”Society could not be safe without respect and reciprocal devotion].

-5th.PASSAGE from Seneca, Epistulae Morales, Book I, Ep.5, paragraph 9:
"Multa bona nostra nobis nocent, timoris enim tormentum memoria reducit, providentia anticipat. Nemo tantum praesentibus miser est."
TRANSLATION:
“Many goods hurt us, memory of  a sad  past gets us to go through that experience again and future forecast  anticipates it. No one is unhappy  over his present evils only”.

-6th. PASSAGE from Seneca, De Beneficii (On the benefits), Book IV, chapter 7 :
"Natura, inquit, haec mihi praestat. Non intelligis te, quum hoc dicis, mutare Nomen Deo? Quid enim est aliud Natura quam Deus, et divina ratio, toti mundo et partibus eius inserta?  Quoties voles tibi licet aliter hunc auctorem rerum nostrarum compellare, et Jovem illum optimum et maximum rite dices, et tonantem, et statorem:  qui non, ut historici tradiderunt, ex eo quod post votum susceptum acies Romanorum fugientium stetit, sed quod stant beneficio eius omnia, stator, stabilitorque est: hunc eundem et fatum si dixeris, non mentieris, nam quum fatum nihil aliud est, quam series implexa causarum, ille est prima omnium causa, ea qua caeterae pendent."

TRANSLATION:
”Nature , he said, gives me these things. Don't you understand that this way you  are calling God  Nature? In fact what’s Nature if not  God and  divine intelligence that  permeates the whole universe ? Whenever you want, you can give another name to this Maker of all our things: you can call him either Jupiter Best and Greatest or Thunderer or Jupiter Stator (standing), whose name does not derives from the fact that, after a prayer, he stopped the Roman legions turned to flight, as the historians said, but  from the fact that all things stand thanks to him, who is the Stator, i.e. he  who stands and gives stability. If then you will also call him Fate, you will not lie as fate is nothing else than a  succession of coordinate causes whose he is the first cause upon which all the other depend”.

**What's "fugientum"? A misspelling?  
Yes, it is so. The correct form is FUGIENTIUM)