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Antique Safes/Jewelers vs. record safes

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Expert: - 1/10/2009


Question

Safe
Terry,

Thank you for your seemingly tireless responses; this really is the only place
for non professional antique safe lovers to go!   I have (probably) a Herring
Hall Marvin safe from before WWI (heavy acorns) and I am about to attempt to
renovate as a humidor at least.   I have written you previously and sent
photos.  One thing I have learned about old safes is that they are pretty easy
to find and purchase.   Before I start my renovation I am stuck on a remark I
have heard you say many times.  You have written that bankers & jewelers
safes are more sought after than cast iron record safes.  That makes sense.  
Sometimes it is obvious from its attributes whether a safe is a record safe or
a jeweler safe.  But in the middle, I am not sure what constitutes a jewelers
safe (or a record safe).   Can you describe how prospective buyers can make
the determination?  Since safes are so easy to obtain, I think I'd prefer to
renovate a jewelers safe rather than a record safe.  Can you tell me what kind
of safe my Hall is?  Is it a record safe or a jeweler's safe?

Answer
Hi Stephen,

Your safe would be a Cast Iron record safe.  The interior door would have been used as a "day lock".

The business would open for the day, and rather than have to open the outer door each time they need an item from the safe, they would use the key to open the interior door.  At the end of the day they would lock the outer door.

The main difference between record safes and jewelers or bankers (burglar) safes is in the construction.  A record safe is meant to keep heat out in the event of fire.  A burglar safe is meant to keep people out.

The construction of a record safe is as follows (I wish I could include a drawing):  Thick walls of fire resistant material, sandwiched between thin sheet metal, inner/outer layers.  A cast iron safe such as yours would have the "stepped edge of the door and door frame, made from a casting.  The face of the door, usually 1/4" to 1/2" would be riveted to the cast iron frame of the door.  The bolt work and lock would be attached to the door usually in a protective "pan" or void, and then the door would have the fire resistive material poured into the door.  The walls would have the sheet metal sides (up to 1/4") riveted to the angle iron corner brackets, which would also be riveted to the door frame casting.

These safes were meant to keep records safe, but because uninformed buyers, who assumed because the safe was large and bulky, and it had a substantial lock installed, was that it was also a burglary safe.  In reality, burglars with large sledge hammers and prying equipment could litterally "peel" one of these safes, given enough time.

The construction of Jewelers or Bankers (burglary) safes was constructed differently.  The body of the safe was usually cast out of a single pouring and the door from a second pouring.  After some basic machining these two pieces would be joined to form the safe.  Bolt work would be added to hold the door shut.  These were generally solid steel or manganese steel construction, and extremely heavy.  Burglars could litteraly beat the "crap" out of these safes with the only result a little damage to the paint.

Many store owners wanting the best of both worlds, would buy a cast iron record safe, that also contained a bankers/jewelers chest inside the safe.  the chest usually wasn't very big, maybe 1 cuft, but it was the strongest part of the safe.

Andy

Terry V Andreasen (Andy)

Expertise

Safe and Vault related Questions; Antique Safe Repair and Restoration; With over 40 years in the Safe & Vault industry, if I can't answer your question I know where to get the answer. Current Project: Restoration of two Tilton & McFarland Safes from the 1860's. Will answer Safe & Vault related questions concerning age, value, restoration, moving, opening & repairing, parts, operation and history. Note: It is not my intention to teach you to open safes or to provide information which may aid in the unlawful opening of a safe. I will not give out drill points or information which I deem inappropriate.

Experience

40 years in the Safe & Vault Industry. Service Manager for one of the largest Safe & Vault companies on the West Coast. Graduate of Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing, Safe lock Manipulation and Safe Deposit Lock Courses. Graduate of Locksmith Institute. Certified Instructor for the California Locksmith Association teaching Basic and Advanced Lock Servicing, Basic Safe opening and Repairing. Factory Trained by AMSEC, LORD Safes, LeFebure, Mosler, KabaMas, LaGard and Sargent & Greenleaf

Organizations
Safecrackers International and the National Antique Safe Association

Education/Credentials
Graduate of Locksmith Institute 1972 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing 1974 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Manipulation 1975 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Deposit Lock Servicing 1985 Instructor Certified - California Locksmith Association - 1985 Factory trained by AMSEC, MAJOR, STAR, Johnson-Pacific, Kaba-MAS, Allied-Gary, ISM, Lord, Brown Safe, EXL, Mosler, Diebold.

Awards and Honors
2009, 2010 & 2011 Listed in AllExperts top 50 Experts. All Experts Categories - Safes & Security Containers, Locksmithing, Antique Safes. Retired US Army Reserve Chief Warrant Officer (CW3), with 32 years of total service. With numerous awards from Vietnam, Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. US Navy - 1971-1981 US Army Reserve 1984-2006 US Army Retired Reserve 2006-present

Past/Present Clients
US Secret Service, FBI, BATF, Local Law enforcment agencies, Diebold, Hamilton Pacific, Red Hawk Int., Chubb International, Bank of America, Wells Fargo Bank, Mechanics Bank, El Dorado Savings Bank, many Credit unions and smaller banks. McDonalds, Togos, BurgerKing, TacoBell, Carls Jr. FoodMaxx, SaveMart, Lucky's, Albertson's, Raley's, Safeway, NobHill, Bell Markets, PW Markets. Great America, Century Theatres, Cinemark Theatres, UA Cinemas, and many homeowners and small businesses. Provide warranty service for lock and safe manufactures. Service area is Northern California - Fresno to Oregon, including western Nevada

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