Expert: Terry V Andreasen (Andy) - 1/17/2009

Question
QUESTION: I was gifted with a locked safe. The Phillips & Son (of Birmingham) has a Climax Detector Lock. Every locksmith I have spoken to wants to drill it, so far I have resisted. Do I have a choice?

ANSWER: David,

Here is some info about your lock.

EDWIN COTTERILL AND CO,  CLIMAX WORKS,  LUDGATE HILL, BIRMINGHAM

Established in 1840, by Edwin Cotterill, as manufacturers of rim mortice, dead ,chest, till, cupboard locks and safes.


 On the 25th March 1846 Edwin Cotterill obtained a patent, Number 11,152 for "Certain improvements in articles applied to windows, doors and shutters".  This was a wide ranging patent and covered several latches.  Some had the latchbolt sliding in the deadbolt.  This lock became known as "E Cotterill Climax Detector Lock".  It was derived from the Bramah lock (whose patent had long expired) although the sliders moved radially with respect to the key.

In 1870 E Cotterill and Co were at Climax Works, Vittoria Street.  In 1886 the address was 93 Great Charles Street, Biringham.  In 1890 they took over F E Wilson and Co and made a lock to Peter Wilson's patent, number 3257 of 1869.  They were sold as the Cotterill-Wilson Lock.  

I haven't found a listing for Phillips & Son safes, but there were quite a number of small safe companies in the Birmingham and Wolverhampton area of England.

This lock is not an extremely easy lock to pick, but it is pickable.  However because of its age, you are going to find difficulty in locating a locksmith that has any knowledge of its construction, or how to pick the lock.  Because most of these locksmiths will probably never see this lock again, they are not interested in spending the time to learn the operation of the lock.  Instead they will just drill it to open it, hopefully they won't damage or destroy it.

You have three choices as I see it; first continue looking until you find a locksmith willing to pick the lock for a reasonable fee.  Second, do your research to learn the operation and any defeat techniques, and pick the lock yourself.  Three, let them drill it and hope for the best.

Andy




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Re: your 3rd. choice; "drill it & hope for the best" What is the best? The safe is full of rough diamonds & I replace the lock with a modern one? It's a great little safe with an impressive coat of arms in brass. I would hate to degrade it's value (if any) with a hasty move. Wait, I think I have answered my own question. What I have is a very heavy paperwieght. If I replace the lock I will have a great little safe ( and possibly some diamonds!)WHAT SHOULD I DO?

ANSWER: Ah, decisions, decisions!  How many left turns does it take to make a right turn?  The great puzzle of life!

The problem with most locksmiths (also most trades today) as I mentioned is they all want to take the easy way, or what they consider the "most convienent" way for them.  Because the locksmiths that you have spoken to don't know how to pick this lock, and they don't want to take the time to learn, they have immediatly elected to drill the safe.

"Hoping for the best" - this is where you cross your fingers and hope that the locksmiths best educated "guess" will prove correct and they will drill a small hole into the lock, without damageing it, and get it open.
Drilling, scoping, and picking the lock is not a bad way to go, if you know where to drill, and how the lock functions.  But in reality, most locksmiths are just guessing.  This results in multiple holes, or as we refer to it - "Swiss Cheese".  
If the safe is drilled correctly, the small holes can be repaired.  Even a swiss cheese door can be repaired.  Steel is steel, doesn't matter how old it is.  The tradgedy is the lock.  Enough damage and it may not be able to be repaired.
As you mentioned replacing the lock with a newer style lock will bring the safe back to "functionality", but the uniqueness of the safe will be ruined and lost for ever.
If you elect to have the locksmith drill the safe, at least discuss with him what his intentions are.  If he is just guessing, then you may want to discuss the matter with another locksmith.
The locksmiths may assume that you are "PRICE SHOPPING", so you need to make it clear to them that price, while it is a factor, is not the deciding factor.  The goal is opening the safe with as little damage as possible, and totally repairable.  If they cannot guarantee this, then look elsewhere.

My other question is are you only talking to locksmiths or are you also checking with bonafide safe companies, and safe men?  Where are you and the safe located?

Andy

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: My safe & I live in Pomona, CA. I get the big house & the safe lives in the garage until it becomes a contributing member of the family.
My first inquiry was to a large lock & safe company in the Palm Springs area (where the safe was purchased), stopped at a couple of other locksmiths on the way home..all drill happy. "...bonafide safe men?" Thought they were all in prison.
Since you didn't ask about the impressive coat of arms, I will tell you; standing Lion & Horse holding a shield.
Inscription reads: HONI SOIT QUI MAL PENSE  DEIU ET MON DROI
Thanks Andy

Answer
PRISON!  Thanks a bunch, that really hurts!!!!!  Besides if they are so good, why are they in prison?

HONI SOIT QUI MAL PENSE  DEIU ET MON DROI
I don't know if you have done the translation for the coat of arms but basically it is:
HONI SOIT QUI MAL PENSE = EVIL TO HIM WHO EVIL THINKS
DEIU ET MON DROI = GOD AND MY RIGHT
The sheield is the "Royal coat of Arms - Order of the Garter"
This statement supposedly originated when King Edward III was dancing with the Countess of Salisbury (around 1350). Her garter slipped down to her ankle, causing those around her to respond with sniggers at her humiliation. In an act of chivalry Edward placed the garter around his own leg, saying "Honi soit qui mal y pense", and the phrase later became the motto of the Order.
Its literal translation from Old French is "Shame be to him who thinks evil of it", although it is sometimes re-interpreted as "Evil be to him who evil thinks.

I have a friend that lives in southern California you might want to contact him.  He is expensive but he is good.

Todd Kern
Professional Safe Cracking
38039 Orange Blossom Ln
Murrieta, CA 92563
(951) 461-7779

Check with him to find out what he would charge.  Your other alternative would be to send or bring the safe to me.

Andy