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Antique Safes/Cary Safe Combination Help

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Expert: - 12/9/2009


Question

Cary Safe Wheel Assemb
Sir,
I recently purchased a large single door Cary Safe made in Buffalo NY that has a black front door and rear side, but is an orangish Red on the sides and top. The whole safe appears to weigh in the area of 800-1000lbs.  It is supported by 4 steel caster wheels. The safe which is approximately 55" Tall, 31" Wide and 25" Deep has the thin chromed brass caps that screw into the hinges rather than solid ones.  Am I right in assuming that would make it a safe made sometime just prior to the end of manufacturer in 1929? The previous owner had cut open the bottom of the safe to access the back of the tumbler assembly so they could open the safe as it had been setting for over 50 years without anyone opening it.  I can reweld in new panels and repair the safe no problem, but I have a couple of questions about the lock assembly and filler material.  I have a 3 wheel design that is numbered and has an inner fine toothed gear that appears to define the combination number for each wheel with a mark that is aligned with a number on the outer area of the wheel which is number from 0 to 99 by single tick mark.  I am wondering if I am correct in assuming that the number designated is the combination number and if so is the number on the wheel facing me when removed considered the first number or the last.  When removed and placed with the two screw mounting plate down, the wheel would be facing up and is the only wheel that shows the numbers with out disassembling the wheel pack.  If that is the case I thought that I should be able to disassemble the wheels, clean them and reassemble them and then use the numbers I find for the combination.  My other question is what is typically used for the filler between the inner panel and outer panel.  Mine appears to be a reddish clay or plaster paris type material as it is very fine and dense like concrete, but is lighter in weight.  

Answer
Steve,

Well you were doing pretty well in your descriptions of the safe, and your assumptions until you got to the wheel pack - I'm impressed.

Your safe would have been manufactured between around 1917-1929.  Unfortunately there are no records by serial number to indicate exactly when your safe would have been manufactured so we have to "ball park" it!

Too bad about the previous owner cutting the bottom out of the safe, makes you want to smack them upside of the head.  Unfortunately people see a locked up safe, and visions of lost wealth immediately jump to their minds.  Obviously they cause much more in damage, than the imaginary wealth they receive from opening the safe.  I'm glad you can repair it.

The three wheel curb assembly is the "brains" of the lock.  Each wheel consists of two main parts, the outer wheel and the inner hub.  The outer wheel has numbers running around the circumfrance and the inner hub will have an index mark.  When the two are pressed together, the index mark will point to the number on the wheel that cooresponds to the number chosen for the combination.
When you reassemble the wheel pack, the first wheel placed on the wheel post is the first number of the combination.  The last wheel you place on the wheel post is your last or third number.
In the picture that you included, the last or third number is the one facing up (visible).

Note:  Do not mix the wheels or hubs up as they have a specific placment on the wheel post.  Changing them around, or mismatching components will result in a lock that doesn't function correctly and/or will not dial correctly.

As you correctly noted, disassembling and cleaning will result in a lock that operates better.  You can use the numbers that you find assigned to each wheel for your combination, or you may set another combination.  There are rules that should be adhered to when setting a combination or you may also have problems down the road.  For instance, numbers should be at least 5 digits apart to avoid problems (ie: 20-24-28 would not be a good combination, 20-63-24 would be a good combination).  also avoid having the last number (wheel three) with a number in the "forbidden zone".  This is an area of numbers, in which the lever engages the lock driver.  By watching the lever engage the driver you will be able to figure out the "center" of this area.  Do not pick a number within 10 numbers of this area for your third wheel.  For instance if the driver starts to engage the lever around the number 7, your forbidden zone would probably be from 0-20.  You will have to visually determine what the forbidden zone is for your lock.

Filler material varied between manufactures.  There were lawsuits over patent infringments when one company copied the "ingredients" of anothers insulation material.  You have a couple of choices, you can have the material analyzed to figure out what was in your safe.  This would allow you to accurately repair it with similar material.  Or you can simply use mortar or concrete to fill the hole.  Remember when welding a cover plate over the hole that the mortar or concrete will contain moisture.  Heat will cause this to evaporate or generate steam.  If it has no place to vent to it may build up enough pressure to rupture the plate while you are welding, resulting in serious injuries.  Better to only use smaller "tack welds" and then finish it off with a bead of silicone to seal the crack.

Good luck.

Andy
    Questioner's Rating
    Rating(1-10)Knowledgeability = 10Clarity of Response = 10Politeness = 10
    CommentAndy, Thank you for your help. You are right about welding the plate over the concrete. I was planning on welding the bottom plate complete then turning the safe back upright and pouring the concrete or filler and once dry placing the inside plate. That way I can weld it and leave a few steam holes, but use the silicone and place a felt matt in the bottom and it will never show. That way it will be sealed from the outside. Your directions were very clear so now I know exactly what to do. This site is amazing. Keep up the good work.


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Terry V Andreasen (Andy)

Expertise

Safe and Vault related Questions; Antique Safe Repair and Restoration; With over 40 years in the Safe & Vault industry, if I can't answer your question I know where to get the answer. Current Project: Restoration of two Tilton & McFarland Safes from the 1860's. Will answer Safe & Vault related questions concerning age, value, restoration, moving, opening & repairing, parts, operation and history. Note: It is not my intention to teach you to open safes or to provide information which may aid in the unlawful opening of a safe. I will not give out drill points or information which I deem inappropriate.

Experience

40 years in the Safe & Vault Industry. Service Manager for one of the largest Safe & Vault companies on the West Coast. Graduate of Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing, Safe lock Manipulation and Safe Deposit Lock Courses. Graduate of Locksmith Institute. Certified Instructor for the California Locksmith Association teaching Basic and Advanced Lock Servicing, Basic Safe opening and Repairing. Factory Trained by AMSEC, LORD Safes, LeFebure, Mosler, KabaMas, LaGard and Sargent & Greenleaf

Organizations
Safecrackers International and the National Antique Safe Association

Education/Credentials
Graduate of Locksmith Institute 1972 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing 1974 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Manipulation 1975 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Deposit Lock Servicing 1985 Instructor Certified - California Locksmith Association - 1985 Factory trained by AMSEC, MAJOR, STAR, Johnson-Pacific, Kaba-MAS, Allied-Gary, ISM, Lord, Brown Safe, EXL, Mosler, Diebold.

Awards and Honors
2009, 2010 & 2011 Listed in AllExperts top 50 Experts. All Experts Categories - Safes & Security Containers, Locksmithing, Antique Safes. Retired US Army Reserve Chief Warrant Officer (CW3), with 32 years of total service. With numerous awards from Vietnam, Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. US Navy - 1971-1981 US Army Reserve 1984-2006 US Army Retired Reserve 2006-present

Past/Present Clients
US Secret Service, FBI, BATF, Local Law enforcment agencies, Diebold, Hamilton Pacific, Red Hawk Int., Chubb International, Bank of America, Wells Fargo Bank, Mechanics Bank, El Dorado Savings Bank, many Credit unions and smaller banks. McDonalds, Togos, BurgerKing, TacoBell, Carls Jr. FoodMaxx, SaveMart, Lucky's, Albertson's, Raley's, Safeway, NobHill, Bell Markets, PW Markets. Great America, Century Theatres, Cinemark Theatres, UA Cinemas, and many homeowners and small businesses. Provide warranty service for lock and safe manufactures. Service area is Northern California - Fresno to Oregon, including western Nevada

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