Expert: Australian International Evangelist Matthew Starrs - 3/14/2006

Question
OK, so I suppose you'd be just as credulous when it comes to claims of miraculous healings from Hindus, Buddhists, spiritualists, Reiki practitioners, etc., right? Or perhaps you'd be a little skeptical and demand proof, as I'm doing, that God's miraculous gift of healing is distributed among heathens and non-believers? Anyway, thanks for admitting that there isn't one shred of evidence out there for Pentecostal magic powers, although I will follow up on the lead you provided.

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Followup To
Question -
1. Ok, so all doctors are dishonest secular humanists who would lie to discredit all the healing miracles performed in Pentecostal churches. THey're all out to get you, huh?

2. And we can't trust the newspapers to tell the truth either? If there's indisputable evidence that a miracle has occurred, then why would the newspaper be afraid for its credibility?
    Yes, every strand of Christianity believes in miracles but they believe they happen very rarely- hence the term "miraculous". Most of us don't believe you can buy a miracle (like Simon Magus) by simply purchasing a ticket to a Benny Hinn crusade or by commanding God to heal you. (Name it/Claim it). We don't believe it's in the power of any man or institution to possess the "power" of miracle healing. And for the churches that do believe in miracle healings, at least the Roman Catholic Church has a pretty stringent process for PROVING those cures by having them reviewed by a panel of doctors and clergy: http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=491&id_rub

3. I'm not looking for a declaration from a doctor saying that a miracle has occurred. I'm looking for a sworn statement that an actual pre-existing organic condition is no longer observable. That would convince me. YOu say that's common practice. So where on the web can I view those statements?

4. Well, Jesus did say that, but why do you think the Pentecostal churches have grown so large in the first place? It's because you have people believing that they're witnessing and experiencing the miraculous. Imagine how many people would convert if you could actually prove one!

5. I'm trying to make an inquiry about the healing you spoke of but you refuse to provide any proof. You may be an honest man for all I know, but I don't know you from Adam and you're someone whose livelihood depends on people believing in these miracles.

6. Well, if a whole crowd of people I knew told me that they saw a withered arm cured before their eyes or a dead man raised from the grave, then I'd have to give it credence. Pentecostal "cures" are much less visible. Pentecostals I know are only able to testify to the cures of headaches, lower back pain and other mysterious and invisible maladies that were probably in their heads to begin with. And while the Pentecostals on TV claim cures for cancer and heart disease cures, they're still unverifiable without some medical testimony. The fact remains that there has never been one proven miracle healing of an organic disorder in a Pentecostal church. And it's always the last refuge of a Pentecostal to pull out the old "Pharisee" insult when you question their extraordinary claims. Well sir, I'm testing the spirits to make sure I'm not led to destruction, and I would suggest you do the same.




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Followup To
Question -
Of course there's such a thing as an impartial observer. It's called the woman's doctor. If all these miracles are taking place, why wouldn't Pentecostals be rushing to publicize the proof? I'm sure any newspaper would be willing to publish the evidence. Simply show the woman's medical records before the "healing" and then have the woman undergo an examination by her doctor after the healing. If there was a genuine organic cure (rather than some psychosomatic disorder) then your church would be flooded with millions of converts. But to date, I am not aware of 1 single genuine miracle healing conducted by the Pentecostal movement. Jesus' healings were public and so obviously miraculous that even His enemies couldn't deny that He was a miracle worker. Why this lack of evidence with you people?

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Followup To
Question -
I know that there have been many exposes of false healings and false prophecies in Pentecostal churches, so I ask if you can direct me to_one_miracle healing conducted by a Pentecostal that has been verified by impartial observers or one_specific_prophecy (no horoscope-type predictions) by a Pentecostal that has indisputably shown to have been fulfilled?
Answer -
Hi Bob,

Your right, there have been quite a few exposes. Usually they have been constructed by anything but impartial observers. They latch onto some charlaten or someone with a genuine faith and ministry but no worldly savvy and flog the living daylights out of them.

The problem is, impartiallity is an impossibility. They that delight themselves in the things of God partake of every aspect of His blessing. They that despise the things of God search out every possible means to discredit them. You can experience the miraculous and still remain blind to the reality of the Living God.

I am not impartial. I became a Christian at 19 years of age, at which time I experienced a healing miracle. For almost 7 years I was unable to straighten my arm. 3 days after recieving prayer for healing my arm suddenly straightened. Since that time I have seen blind eyes opened, deaf ears opened, cripples stand up and run. Most of the recipients of these miracles were non-christians. I have seen God heal innumerable ailments. Some may seem trivial, but usually to the healed person it was a touch from the Lord, and that is what is valuable.

Just 2 days ago in my church a woman was healed of a long standing condition. (I am not the Pastor there). She had suffered with a condition afflicting her nervous system for over 4 years. For that time she has been on morphine 24/7. She could not walk without assistance. She could not bear her husband holding her because of the pain. In the morning service she was prayed for and experienced some unusual sensations in her body. Prayer continued for about half an hour. After this the pain in her body was completely gone. She had however already taken morphine that day. Later that afternoon the pain began to return.

She came to the evening service and was prayed for again (not by anyone special. It was mainly a few of the young girls in the church praying for her). This time the pain left completely, and did not return.

My wife saw her 24 hours later. She was running and jumping, moving freely. She had not taken any morphine that day (yesterday) and had had no signs of her symptoms. Remember, she had been suffering with physical pain since a botched operation 4 years ago. I have not seen her today, but my guess would be that nothing has changed since yesterday.

The woman is a new christian. She was only baptised the weekend before last. Her husband and daughter are not christians, but both have said that if this is real they will be in church next week.

Unfortunately I will not be there as I am on my way to Brazil for a month. I am certain that I will see plenty of healings during that time also.

I thank God that the woman is a new christian. She has not had time for religious people to tell her that Jesus will not heal her.

The person that doubts cannot recieve anything from God, as the scripture has said.

Look up my church. Ask my Pastor for his opinion. Ask if you can contact the lady yourself. We have nothing to hide. We did nothing special. We are not making any claims. But since you are asking I am letting you know what is happening.

Look up Sun City Christian Church. Townsville, Queensland, Australia.

Blessings!
Matthew.
Answer -
Well Bob,
your partiality is clear. The general answer to your allegation is your attitude. It's typical. It was typical of the people (especially the religious people) in Jesus time also. You choose not to believe.

Let me break it down for you from your response:

1. "Of course there's such a thing as an impartial observer. It's called the woman's doctor."

I have sad news for you Bob. The Doctor is human also. Not only that the Dr is well educated. This in itself is neither good nor bad, it depends what was taught. I hold two bachelor degrees. One in Psychology and one in education. I was President of the local honour society. I know something about what is taught in Universities. It is definitely partial towards "us people".

2. "If all these miracles are taking place, why wouldn't Pentecostals be rushing to publicize the proof? I'm sure any newspaper would be willing to publish the evidence."

Newspapers publish what sells. However this is balanced with wanting to be a credible source. After all, the Doctor will not subscribe to a newspaper that publishes what he refuses to believe.

Furthermore, It is not just Pentecostals that believe in miracles and supernatural occurences. It is every strand of Christianity and every other religion also. If anybody was interested in finding an inexplicable event they would not have to ask too many people before they found one. The overwhelming majority would be dismissed at some point of investigation, but who has the time and energy. In the story I told you the womans husband and teenage daughter are responding favourably to their mothers "miracle". They are close enough to her to know that she is telling the truth. The rest of those that choose not to believe will do what you have done. DISREGARD the information provided to you so that you can make inquiry and dismiss the possibility of this being a genuine healing based soley on your own reliance on stereotypes of "us people". This of course has not affected the womans new found freedom from pain in any way.

3."Simply show the woman's medical records before the "healing" and then have the woman undergo an examination by her doctor after the healing."

This is our standard operational procedure. We always send people back to the Doctors to be cleared of any possibility of some psychological phenomena taking place. Not because we think they were psychosomatic disorders, but because we want to make sure that the disease really is gone before people go off medication. Doctors occasionally try to explain away what has happened. There have been many instance that I know of that the Dr has acknowledged that the condition is no longer observable, but to take a leap of faith that says "this person has received a miraculous healing from God" requires a predisposition towards the possibility. Those that have this predisposition know too well the ridicule that would ensue such a statement.

4. "If there was a genuine organic cure (rather than some psychosomatic disorder) then your church would be flooded with millions of converts."

Funny. Jesus miraculous healings did not secure a single convert. In His own words. . . "If they didn't believe Moses, they won't believe even if someone were to be raised from the dead"!

5. "But to date, I am not aware of 1 single genuine miracle healing conducted by the Pentecostal movement. "

Now I know that you are a liar. I have told you of one, yet you refuse to believe. You dismissed it without making inquiry. You profess that you are impartial . . . and you accuse "us people" of being fraudulent?

6. "Jesus' healings were public and so obviously miraculous that even His enemies couldn't deny that He was a miracle worker. Why this lack of evidence with you people? "

His ememies believed in the occurence of miracles. This is a huge difference in itself. The evidence that the bible refers to was NEVER a physicians report, but eyewitness accounts. Had they heard of psychosomatic disorders they would have used Freud to prove that Jesus was a fake.

When they came to Jesus and said "We know that no-one can do the works that you do unless God is with him" do you think this butter up was genuine? If so why were they trying to catch him out with his words?

They grilled the formerly blind man and his parents and ended up throwing the guy out of their religion rather than admit that Jesus had healed him.

You ask "Why this lack of evidence with you people?" The answer is quite simple. We don't preach miracles. We preach Jesus. He does miracles. And as He said "whatever they did to me, they will do to you".

So I think that "you people", as you call us, are Jesus' people. Which begs the question, "What kind of people are you Bob"? From what I can see in your writing you are coming across a lot like one of the Pharisees that opposed Jesus in the Bible.

I don't say this to condemn you. The bible clearly states that Satan has blinded the eyes of those that don't believe. Bob, the scales don't come off because of rational arguement or evidence. They come off when you turn to the Lord.

Blessings!

Matthew.


Answer -
Sorry to take so long to get back to you Bob.

As I said, I am away for a month in Brazil. Let me sort out one assumption that you haVE MADE RIGHT NOW. i DON'T GET PAID FOR THE MINISTRY. i AM SELF FUNDED THROUGH MY WORKING A SECULAR JOB. i NEVER ASK ANYONE FOR MONEY. oCCASIONALLY i GET SMALL DONATIONS BUT THIS IS RARE. iT HAS COST ME $3000 Australian dollars just for my airfare to come to Brazil. (sorry about the caps lock).

My first night here a man that could not walk to church without assistance was healed and ran around the church. I don't know if he had a doctors report before hand. I didn't need a doctors report afterward. I could see the difference and so could hundreds of other witnesses. Healing and miracles are not the focus of my ministry. They are a byproduct. About 50 people made decisions to follow Jesus. That was my focus. After that I invited those who needed prayer to stay and dismissed the rest of the assembly.

My point is that this stuff happens. I always send people back to their doctors for confirmation. One woman asked me if God heals me why do I need to go to a doctor. I explained that not everyone i pray for gets healed and she described symptoms of an impending stroke. I was concerned for her welfare. She didn't want to go to the doctor.She hadn't been before.

I am not sure why you have taken such offence to my ministry. I can't see how I am doing anything harmful to you or anyone else.
I don't see why you think I owe it to you to provide evidence of things that are none of your concern. Even if the evidence were available(at least in my country) there are confidentiality laws that would prevent me making it available to you.
I gave you details of a lead to follow up on. Did you do it?
Of course you didn't. Because if you did you would have to admit you are wrong. I am not refusing to provide proof. I don't require proof, so I don't gather it. I gave you a lead so you could find out for yourself. Are you so lazy that you expect me to do this work for you? I am too busy doing the work that is mine to do.
If you wanted to criticise certain ministries I might agree with you. There are some really shonky rip-off merchants out there.But that has nothing to do with me.

Matthew.

Answer
OK, this is really getting ridiculous. I never said there was no evidence. And I actually believe that inexplicable, supernatural occurrences take place in all kinds of religions. That's not proof that God did them. There is a devil too you know. His job is to blind people to the gospel.
The fact that I am telling you that I have seen miraculous healing IS evidence. Haven't you ever seen how a court of law works. Testimony = evidence.
Last night a young teenage girl was in my meeting with her family. She had a developmental problem with her ear. Because of this she has been profoundly deaf her whole life. I prayed for her and nothing happened. I prayed a second time and rebuked a spirit of deafness (Yes, I knew the problem was physical, but I felt that was what God wanted me to do). After I prayed she jumped with excitement. She could hear for the first time. She ran to her father and cried out Papy! He started crying as she had never said this before. They asked her what happened using sign language (she has never heard so does not understand audible language), she said she could hear clearly! We tested this by clicking fingers behind her and she raised her hand for which side it was on. All of her family and friends there were crying, They had never seen such a miracle. I asked her mother to got to the clinic and get an assessment done. She didn't understand why. It was obvious to everybody there that a great miracle had taken place. I told her it was so others could understand what God has done. She said that she would, but plainly she thought that if you could not believe the evidence of your own eyes, you wouldn't believe the report either. I am counting on a few things for me to recieve the report.
1. She must take her daughter to the clinic. She may not want to spend the money.
2. She will have to give her pastor the report.
3. the pastor will have to find a way to get the report to me.
If all of this takes place, I will forward the same to you.
This report is only SUPPORTIVE evidence for us that experienced that wonderful moment. You speak as if it is primary evidence. What a shame that you choose not to turn from your stubborn pride and unbelief. Even if you get the report you will say it is manufactured.
We will continue to celebrate the work of God.