Expert: Brian Thompson - 3/12/2006

Question
Kim Clement didn't even post that "prophecy on his site until after the fact: http://www.erwm.com/KimClement3.htm  Also, see these sites for more info on this heretical false prophet:

http://letusreason.org/Popteac14.htm
http://www.apostasywatch.com/wolves3/page1.html

Wait, I feel a prophecy coming on......mmmmmmmmm.......Thus Saith the Lord: It's going to rain in Seattle in April 2006.

Test the Spirits, my friend, test the spirits.


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Followup To
Question -
2 questions- 1. You write that the prophecy was from July 22nd, but the link you provided goes to a separate prophecy from August 28th, as the hurricane was bearing down on N.O. If you can give me a link showing the prophecy was made on July 22nd, I might be a little more convinced. 2. Who is Bilbo? Bilbo Baggins?


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Followup To
Question -
Well the personal offense exists because I'm personally offended by scam movements taking advantage of millions of gullible people. I tried to find some books about Wigglesworth but all I found were his own works and a couple by his disciples. I'll be sure to check those out and see if these are just hagiographies or if they actually offer independent evidence. Somehow I doubt it. I don't see one thing on the internet about a Tommy Rice. Perhaps you spelled the name wrong? As for Shakarian, again you give me as a source the organization he led- the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International. That's not exactly impartial. Would any of these "miraculous healings" hold up in a court of law?
      As for prophecies, again- do you have any evidence besides hearsay? Why didn't this "prophet" fly immediately to New Orleans and run through the streets yelling that the levees would break? How far in advance was the "prophecy"? Even the meteorologists knew a couple of days beforehand that a huge hurricane would hit N.O. directly. I wouldn't call that prophecy.
      I would be willing to cease judging the Pentecostal movement by the big name ministries if you would just give me one link providing independent evidence of a miracle healing or fulfilled prophecy!

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Followup To
Question -
No offense, but you're not exactly an impartial observer. Jesus healed so publicly and miraculously that even His enemies admitted that he was a miracle worker, while to date I am not aware of 1 single independently verified organic healing from a Pentecostal. As for prophecies, Jesus (not to mention the Old Testament prophets) were quite specific. He prophesied that He would be executed and rise from the dead on the third day. On the other hand, every Pentecostal "prophecy" I've ever witnessed are on the level of newspaper horoscopes- "You're going to turn your life around and be a might man of God and things are going to be great!". HOwever, I have to give Benny Hinn credit- he really went out on a limb a few times, predicting he death of Fidel Castro, the dectruction of homsexuals in America, the Rapture, etc.....and was wrong every time. So, yeah, you're correct in detecting some hostility- I think the Pentecostal movement has succeeded in duping millions of credulous and superstitious people. I'd be willing to change my mind with some actual proof though.
     I do not have any information on Wigglesworth, Rice or Shakarian, but I know that Kuhlmann died very early of a heart problem and like all the other healers, has not left one shred of evidence of one successful organic healing but instead has left plenty of evidence of false healings.

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Followup To
Question -
I know that there have been many exposes of false healings and false prophecies in Pentecostal churches, so I ask if you can direct me to_one_miracle healing conducted by a Pentecostal that has been verified by impartial observers or one_specific_prophecy (no horoscope-type predictions) by a Pentecostal that has indisputably shown to have been fulfilled?
Answer -
I can give you several instances from my personal experience of healings. These are "verified" as to prophesy I know of a number including some from my own experience.

If you want to pursue the prophesy question I suggest you take it up with someone more qualified to answer, Pastor John Jakes, now resident in the USA, but who for a number of years schooled the AOG in Australia in the prophetic ministry. John has prophesied over me a number of times and I have found him accurate and truely exercising the gifts of knowledge and wisdom which I'm sure you know operate in concert with prophesy.

I sence in a your question a certain hostility, Bob, and I wonder, would you be prepared to discuss that? Any Church movement has attracted it's share of charlatans and misguided persons and the pentecostal movement is, unfortunately, no different. Even today there are people among the televangelists both within and outside the penecostal movement whose actions are highly questionable, but if you examine the ministries of people such as Smith Wigglesworth, Catherine Kulhmann  and Tommy Rice you will find some remarkable miracles. As to prophesy, the prophetic testimony of Demos Shakarian is among the most remarkable and it certainly was fulfilled within his life time. It is set out in the Book The happiest people on Earth obtainable from the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International.

Such things are reflected time and time again in the pentecostal movement and not necessarily by the big ministries of the day.
Answer -
Bob

As I said I sense hostility in you and so I ask what is the personal offense caused to you by the pentecostal movement?

The life of Smith Wigglesworth is fully documented in many books. Tommy Rice went to Argentina in obedience to God, healed Juan Peron, the Dictator, and was given the opportunity to hold evangelistic rallies, many hundreds of thousands came to Christ as a result. I have given you the source for checking on Demos Shakarian, an extremely powerful ministry of the mid twentieth century, as I said the prophesy regarding him and his ministry was fulfilled within his lifetime. You asked a question, I answered it and you reject the answer. No, in the case of those things I have experienced personally, and have been part of, I am not an impartial observer, but I am a truthfull one. I have been instrumental in healing a number of people myself through prayer and have been healed of serious illness through the prayer of others. These events, and others, are documented in a book entitled Have you met any raving ratbags lately? The book has been read and reviewed by those who were there.

As Far as prophesy is concerned and this can be found and is documented, the Katrina disaster was predicted as was the earlier hurricane. This didn't happen in my hearing but I have seen reports of it which were published after the first hurricane and before Katrina hit. Prophets are called to say what they are hearing and prophesy is to be judged on the report of two or three witnesses, therefore we are not to take the report of just one prophet. As I said, John Jakes can put it in perspective for you. You have to listen carefully to what is being said, Today, Tomorrow doesn't literally mean that but anticipate it soon, soon can be a long time coming, anything beyond that might take some time. If the prophesy is even less specific then who knows. John Jakes prophesied I would go into prisons. I have preached to lifer's in Long Bay Jail in Sydney and there were decisions for Christ. You don't get in there easily. He didn't say when, but it did happen. If the date is specific as with Katrina that is a month is named, this is unusual.

When you have big faith ministries, what they say is documented and reported and judged, but are they "prophets". You need to take the word of those who operate in the office of a Prophet and you don't get to operate in that office in the Pentecostal churches unless you have some runs on the Board. Very few "Prophets" are found among teleevangelists because the office of an Evangelist is different. If you sit under the ministry of a prophet you will find the messages are heavy, full of repentance teaching. Definately not good for television. If you sit under the ministry of an evangelist you will find the messages are oriented to edification and salvation but rarely do they have deep teaching. You may even often find a prophet and an evangelist working together. This is Scriptural, you see it with Paul and Barnabas, etc.

Don't judge Pentecostals and the Pentecostal movement  by big name ministries
Answer -
Bob

You really should take seriously what serious men of god like myself tell you

here is the prophecy
July 22, 2005- Houston, TX


   Servants of God:

   Enough of past curses reminding you of yesterday’s failures. Enough of New Orleans and its treachery. Enough of stealing the Ark of the Covenant from my people just because you had those surrounding you that had no faith. Caleb said we are able to take this land. Joshua said we are able to take this land. But ten voices arose against the Lord God. And they would stone my servant Moses and say let us stone them and raise up another leader so that we may go back to Egypt. Would you go back to your dung? Would you go back to your vomit?

   O New Orleans God speaks to you from Houston tonight and says enough of this! For a judgment is coming says the Spirit of the Lord, and I will take the men that have stood in faith, raise them above the flood that shall destroy those that constantly bicker and stand against my servant Moses, or my servant Bilbo. I want you to understand there are great men in New Orleans that have faith but you have been set aside not to lose but to win. Enough of this! For I will take the curses and the bodies will even rise and they will come forth on the water, but I will keep you and the stench of death will only last a few days. And then what I promised two years ago will come to pass for August, September and October of this year I made a promise it would happen, and God said be strengthened now, be strengthened now for enough is enough says the Lord.
Kim Clements
Is that specific enough for you.

if not see what you can find here
http://www.generals.org/index.php?id=201

God does nothing that He does not first tell his prophets and the prophecy regarding New Orleans was spoken by Clements and confirmed by Jacobs

As to Shakarian Demos was great ministry and his ministry lives on in The FGBMFI lead by his son Richard. There are thousands within the FGB who can attest to healings and fulfilled prophecies if you will just listen. As I said get a copy of the book and you will find fulfilled prophecy and miracles. You want to know about Rice in argentina, ask teh FGB.
Answer -
Bob
these things were not done in a closet they are very esily found on the internet

The First prophesy ( was in July)
The second prophesy (Jacobs, was in August, but it refers also to an earlier prophesy on the same subject)

The material on the following site will answer your queries

www.kimclement.com/words/2005/July222005.htm

I hope you take the time to read it all carefully and see th heart of the ministries involved. This is not prophecying for profit.  

Answer
Bob

I give you one answer
Matthew 13:15 NIV
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' [ Isaiah 6:9,10]

You have come with a particular viewpoint seeking to prove your veiwpoint, therefore you disregard any evidence to the contrary. People don't usually go around publishing prophesies, what often happens is an event occurs and the prophet or someoneelse realises that the event was prophesied. In Pentecostal Churches the Church service is recorded particularly prophesy and the sermon because it is widely distributed after the event to those who were not there. Therefore, the prophesy being published on the web after the event does not invalidate it as it would have been recorded on the day but may not have been transcribed. Prophesy is to be judged on the voice of two or three witnesses so it cannot be judged until the second witness has spoken. This may not be immediately known, but I have given you the prophesy and the confirmation there is nothing more I can do, either you believe or you don't. If a prophet makes a prophesy, and I emphasise the "if a prophet", as distinct from "if a preacher", then you might have reasonable expectation that it will come to pass, but if a preacher makes a prophesy, who knows, what office are they ministering in?

As to Healing I was at a men's camp at the weekend and there were a number of personal testimonies of healing of serious and indeed horrendous injuries and illnesses. What do you say to that? the people were lying? for what purpose, no money changed hands, just godly ministry. Do not judge pentecostals by the teleevangelists because they come from many denominations, some from mainline churches like Schiller, who I have christened Batman, he comes from the Reformed church, Benny Hinn started out as Greek Orthadox, that prolific author Rick Warren is Baptist. Have an open mind Bob and cultivate an open heart to the things of God. If something doesn't seen right, put that at the feet of the individual, not the movement and realise that predictive prophesy is rare and prophesy that includes a judgement even rarer, most prophesy in Pentecostal churches is to edify and exhort.