Expert: Tom Whiting - 4/2/2008

Question
QUESTION: Hi, Tom! I read a question you annswered about telescopes, so here goes. I have loved telescopes, the Moon and planets, astronomy, since childhood. But I never had a really powerful telescope, and I want one. If I spent a $200-300 dollars, either new or used, could I get a reaally powerful scope, that I could see a large image of Jupiter, say, and actually see the bands, and The Great Red Spot? If not, what COULD I see, within that price range, besides the Moon? Also, how delicate are they to shipping damage? I mean, if I buy one Used, how can I guarantee it will make it to me intact, in perfect order?

ANSWER: Hi Mike,
We typically recommend to our newer members to plan on spending
around $500 or thereabouts on their first starter scope, typically
a 6 or 8 inch Newtonian reflector.  Usually any less than that is basically junk, and doesn't work...unless
you want to get a used scope, off the website:
www.astromart.com
which is a great place to purchase used equipment.
But most of our club members are into DSO's (Deep Sky Objects)
so they prefer large mirror Newtonians...you however have expressed
more of an interest in lunar/planetary details, so your preference
would be for a long focal length refractor, which are a little more
expensive then the New'ts mentioned above. I think a typical 4 inch
high quality refractor (which I'm not into) goes for more like
$600- $1000 dollars, IF you want exquisite images.  For the Great
Red Spot and finer details on Jupiter, Cassini's division on
Saturn, for that detail you need at least a 4 inch glass.

Don't think that's expensive...compare our great observational
hobby to other hobbies and activities...how much are a complete
set of $20 US gold pieces?  How about a motorcycle...a motor boat
cabin cruiser?  AN AIRPLANE, say a Cessna 150 2-seater?
And that other stuff requires maintenance, gas, licensing, registration, sometimes winter storage, did I mention maintenance?
All we need are a few extra eyepieces and a good star chart.
NOW, who has the "cheaper" hobby?  See what I mean....any hobby
or activity is going to set you back a little, and in astronomy,
and particular telescopes, you either go "first class" or you don't
go at all. Sorry, but laws of optics dictate that all surfaces be
ground and figured to at least 1/4 wavelength (5 millionths of an
inch) of light to be useful, and that's just a bare minimum...most of us go for 1/10 wavelength, or 2 millionths of an inch figure on our mirrors for exquisite images. And all this precision grinding
and figuring, takes time and money.
But are you really ready for a scope yet?  Can you point with your
finger the planet Saturn, the Andromeda Galaxy, the Beehive star
cluster, the Lagoon Nebula, the planet Mars in the night sky? (All naked eye objects)! If not, you're not ready yet.  Because if you
can't point your finger to these naked eye objects, HOW are you
going to point an instrument that only views a 1/2 degree (very small) field of view?  You can't.  So in our great hobby, knowledge
comes first, and equipment (scopes) comes LAST.  Your first task
is to learn the naked-eye night sky...takes about 6 mo to a year.
Suggest you punch up our club website, and punch on "Tom Whiting's
Sound Advice to the Novice" and read it first, at
http://www.velocity.net/~bwhiting
and follow those instructions first, if you're fairly new to our
great hobby.  It tells you the proper way to enter our field of
observational astronomy, and avoid a lot of pitfalls.
Hope this helps,
Clear Skies,
Tom Whiting
Erie, PA  

PS...no one can guarantee a purchase of ANY used equipment over the internet; the only guarantee is when you order a scope from a company
like Meade or Celestron or Discovery or Antares....it's always buyer beware, but I purchased my 6 inch Antares finderscope ($200) for my 30 inch scope from astromart and had no problem with the delivery. It was slightly out of collimation (alignment) but any astronomer knows how to collimate a scope....if you don't, again, you aren't then ready to own a scope,because we collimate them (or check the collimation with an eyepiece laser) all the time. I do it on every setup.

FOLLOW UP:
Oh, and NEVER NEVER buy a telescope that is promoting a high power...
run the other way, in fact!  We all know that for telescopes, assuming an excellent figure and grind, the maximum effective
magnification is about 50 power per inch of aperture. Your typical
4 inch reflector or refractor, is good to about 200 power...higher
than that, then you're getting what we call "empty magnification"...
that is, you're magnifying the defects in the scope just as much
as the image itself, so the image just gets bigger, but much
fuzzier, so that's why it's called empty magnification...it's stuff
like this you have to learn about, before jumping in feet first into
our great hobby.  There is a lot to learn, first...that's why we say
knowledge comes first, equipment last.  We prefer you join up with
a local astronomy club first, go out observing with them, see what
equipment they use and recommend, and go from there. That's the
proper way to go, so you don't make a lot of expensive mistakes at
the very beginning. Observational astronomy is a hobby you want to
enter very slowly, and step wise, and not dive in feet first!
Only one out of 2000 people do what we do, observe out in the boonies at night with other observers, well past midnight, so first you have to find out if you're that one in 2000 people, 'nuts' enough
to do what we do.  Good Luck. Tom


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: All I can say,Tom, is WOW! I think I learned as much about telescopes and astronomy from ONE answer e-mail, than I have in all the years of casual reading and knowledge! I guess, like anything worthwhile, you have to take some TIME to LEARN, before jumping in. I think I will try to get some good books, go online, and study starcharts and celestial objects, before I spend big money. I can also keep my interest up with the INCREDIBLE images available from the Hubbell Space Scope, and other things like spaceref,spacedaily, spacetoday, and of course, nasa.gov. No matter HOW much money I spend, I'll NEVER see images in my yard like I could if I looked thru Keck, in Hawaii, or any of the other great ones. Even looking at the photos online takes my breath. You know, I SAW Keck, from the outside, they wouldn't let me look thru it, no matter HOW much I begged, haha! It was daytime, anyway. But as you know, scientists and astronomers are on year-long waiting lists, what chance could I have, even if I was there at night!  Thanks a lot for all the info, and, "Keep Looking Up!"

ANSWER: Hi Mike,
Honestly, no one "looks" through the Keck 10 meter, or any other
very large observatory telescope. They are all set up ONLY for the computer chips (called CCD's) and the instrument guys. If you want to look visually through a fairly large telescope, you have to build your own, like I did, a 30 incher, and you have to stay portable to get away from light polluted cities. Today, visually, thru a large
scope, is just a waste of their precious observing time using
sensitive equipment, so those days are gone forever. I think the
largest permanent visual scope in operation today is the amateur operated Warren Rupp observatory, a 31 inch f7, in Mansfield Ohio.
(Although some amateurs out west have built and use up to 40 inch
portable DOB's. (Dobsonian mounted)...portable truss scopes, like mine.

And of course realize all those photo's are "fakes" compared to
our naked eye. Film and computers see different wavelengths compared
to our "no color" rods using night vision, so we don't see all that
color that the film sees. Plus film can take a time exposure of
several minutes or hours gathering light. Our eye can't do that.
So I guess they aren't really "fakes" it's simply the way film and
computer chips see it....but it ain't the way we see
it visually in a scope of any size...there is just a small hint
of color, and that's all...unlike the highly exposed, highly
processed, pictures that you see in books. That isn't the way we
see it in a scope, no matter how big of a mirror you have.
(If that's what you are thinking)
Yes, there is a lot to learn FIRST, so go back and re-read my
advice to the novice on our webpage, at
http://www.velocity.net/~bwhiting
Clear Skies,
Tom Whiting
Erie PA

FOLLOW UP:
Don't get so engrossed in astronomy courses, planetariums,  internet sites on astronomy, learning from books, and just staring at a star chart...these are all good incentives, BUT...they don't give you what you need to know right NOW.

You still need to take your star chart, red flashlight, and perhaps
a pair of inexpensive binoculars, go outside at night, and find a dark sky site, and start matching the star chart to the night sky...read that, learn the night sky, under the night sky.  There is NO substitute for this!  We all had to do it, and you are no different. Even the best planetarium cannot duplicate the real thing.
Even the best computerized star chart cannot duplicate the real thing.  The real thing IS the night sky, and there is no substitute
for that.
The reward?  In less than 6 months of studying astronomy
and learning the night sky, you suddenly become the neighborhood
"expert" in astronomy, because the general public knows so little about our hobby, that everyone will come to you after only 6 months, because you'll know the night sky better than 99% of the world's population.  (Hey Mike, what's that bright object in the SE right
before dawn?  - 90% the time, the answer is Venus, but you'll be asked this same question over and over by your neighbors and friends.)
No other science is like that...you can't become an expert chemist,
medical doctor, or physicist in only 6 months!


Just like, when you eventually get and use a telescope, there is NO substitute for a dark, moonless, clear, non-light polluted sky out in very rural areas.  That's why we all have
to stay portable, and travel a distance, away from the glow of city
lights, to find a decent dark sky, because there is nothing that
can produce a dark, clear, non-light polluted sky, artificially.
So you have to have mandatory transportation (car, truck, whatever)
in our hobby too, (unless you already live in a very rural area
away from city light glow) in these very light polluted days.
And it's not just one or two security lights, it's the total glow
coming from cities and towns that ruins our view).
Just thought you'd like to know this additional information.
Clear Skies,
Tom Whiting
Erie, PA

FOLLOW UP:
Now there is a "scope"...beats my 30 inch mirror by a mile! AT
http://www.opticalmechanics.com/48Dob/index.html
tom

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks Again, Tom, for all the valuable info. I don't want to keep bugging you, just a couple more quick things. I just wanted to write back to let you know I'm not THAT dumb, I'm an Electronic Tech, with a lot of Science interest for the last 40 years. Of Course I know about CCDs, and computer chips, I've had to REPAIR similar equipment,in the past. When I said "look" thru Keck, it was just a lazy way of writing "look at the data collected and color-enhanced, and imaged onto monitors", but I understand why you're explaining, you're like me, a teacher by nature, and that's a good thing. I also know the best thing is to look at the night sky and indentify objects,but unfortunately, I live in New Haven, CT, which SUCKS, as far as Light Pollution. One time while in Hawaii, and another in the White Montains in New hampshire, and in Canada once, the sky was lit up like the Universal Christmas Tree, it was awesome. That's the only disappointing thing about the hobby, you have to live near a uninhabited area, for really good viewing/contrast. But I get what you mean about an Optical scope, you can only see a limited amount, compared to Hubbell, or other Radio, Microwave, /X-Ray, etc.
BTW,you mentioned the 30-40 inch scopes were the largest. Wasn't there a 200-inch scope, the Hale, at Mt. Palomar? Isn't that an Optical Scope? I always wanted to go to California when I was a kid, thinking I could "look thru it".

The other reason for this message was to ask if you saw the GREAT PBS Special last night about the Cassini ang Huygens Missions. I saw ACTUAL photographs from the Huygens Probe, as it parachuted down to the surface of Titan, the huge and unusual Saturnine Moon, and photos of the particles of Methane "snow and slush" under the probe's belly, and dry "river beds and valleys". I also heard them explain the Cassini data, from when it dipped into Saturn's Rings! It seems that the Almost Pure, H2O ice makes up the Outer Rings, and the Inner Rings, contaminated from more years or centuries of dust bombardment causes a more red pattern of bands from the spectrograph, signifying the Older age of the Inner Rings. Also, they described what it would be like, to be in Saturn's Rings. I believe thay said the huge rings are only 38 feet thick, but they are full of particles of almost pure water ice, ranging in size from grains of rice, to LARGE HOUSES. These particles are bumping into each other constantly, chipping off smaller particles.But to fly into them from space, they would be contacting you at a speed of 10,000 meters/sec, 10 times faster than a rifle bullet. I could picture the problem of a large house made of -200C ice hitting ANYTHING! It would definitely ruin your day. The PBS special was reaaly cool, catch it, if you haven't already seen it.

Answer
Hi Mike,
I meant that 30-40 inch scopes are the largest "PORTABLE" scopes around, that observers can use visually, eyeball to the eyepiece.
(The 31 f7 at Warren Rupp is the largest 'eyeball to the eyepiece'
permanently mounted scope that I know of...although there may be others I am not aware of.) Not sure, because I'm not dependent on
them with a 30 inch portable scope of my own.

No one looks visually thru the 200 inch Hale telescope on Mt.
Palomar either, it's all electronics too. I've heard that on some
nights they use one of the 4 telescopes on site at the McDonald
Observatory (Univ. of Texas) for visual work, but I'm just not sure.
A lot of times, guests at an observatory are just staring at a monitor with a video camera attached to the scope, which in my case, doesn't count, as the real, actual old photons aren't hitting the back of the eyeball, only the processed electrons and photons of a monitor screen. So, that doesn't do much for me.

Yes, I am a member of the Saturn Observing Team as part of NASA
and JPL Saturn Outreach to the public, so we received that DVD several months ago about Huygens and Cassini and the rings of Saturn.

Actually, a couple of times a year we get a group of observers that
drives down from Hartford, CONN to Cherry Springs State Park near
Coudersport, PA...(a designated dark sky state park by the state
of Pennsylvania for astronomy only)...they come from as far as Richmond VA Wash, DC, Phily, New York City. True, it's an 8-10 hour drive, but they come anyway for the whole new moon weekend.  
Typically we have over 200 observers every new moon weekend at that
site.
So New Haven wouldn't be that much farther.  OR, as an alternative for dark skies, you have the Pocono's closer, or right up I-91 to central Vermont. I even drive every new moon weekend from Erie to Cherry Springs and that's about a 150 mile drive, just to get into totally dark skies for one weekend a month.
You have to do that now due to the heavy light pollution; sadly,
it just comes with the hobby now if you are a very active observer
and want the totally dark non-light polluted sky.

Surely a city the size of New Haven should have an active astronomy
club you could first join...you can check the Sky & Telescope website, punch on resources, clubs and organizations organized by state, to find one.
Hope all this helps,
Clear Skies,
Tom Whiting
Erie, PA