Expert: Vincent M. Wales - 3/1/2009

Question
QUESTION: Hi. My question is do you think it makes me intolerant because I say I would not date a christian and prefer not to be friends with devout christians? I just feel very strongly that religion is harmful and a negative thing, and actually feel that a lot of christian teachings are actually immoral and the reason for a lot of the inequality and unfairness that exists in the world today(i.e. the gay marriage ban). Religion is often used to justify mistreating certain groups of people and denying them equal rights, including women! Also, I have to question how strong a persons convictions are if they can date someone whose value system is so vastly different from there own. For example, how can an animal rights activist date a hunter? Or the president of a pro choice advocacy group date the head of the National right to life association? You get the picture. Isn't it natural to gravitate towards people who share our values and beliefs? And why is it okay for christians to speak out against gays for example, and not be called intolerant(just because they hide behind the bible) but the minute someone dares to question christian doctrine they are intolerant? Thanks.

Erin

ANSWER: Erin:

Well... yes, it's natural to prefer associating with those who hold similar beliefs to our own.  Having a similar worldview is, I think, a large part of a strong bond with someone.

That's not to say it's necessary.  I've known plenty of married Christian/atheist couples.  Wouldn't work for me any more than it would for you, but obviously, it CAN work, for some people.

And while I agree with you about the negative aspects of religion, bear in mind that a PERSON is not the same thing as the religion.  There are plenty of Christians, for example, who are totally fine with homosexuality and support gay marriage rights.  For that matter, there are some atheists who are opposed to such rights.

Christians come in a lot of different flavors.  They're not all like Pat Robertson.  I have many good friends who are Christian, not to mention plenty of relatives who are.  And we get along fine.  Thankfully, none of them are zealots.

So... are you intolerant?  Yeah, I'd say so.  But your reasons, at least, are solid ones.  But I'd suggest you maybe not paint everyone with the same brush.

As for being called intolerant... I think plenty of Christians are called intolerant.  It's just not as socially acceptable to point it out, in our society.

-VMW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I wanted to clarify something. I have friends who call themselves christians. They believe in god. I don't necessarily have a problem with believing in a god per say, although I have to admit that I can't take their beliefs seriously or respect them. The very definition of faith is to believe in something which can not be proven. How can I respect someone whose beliefs are not based on logic or reason? How can I respect someone's opinion when they can not back it up with facts? And is being intolerant ALWAYS a bad thing?

For example, should we tolerate and respect the views espoused by white supremacist groups? Should we show respect and tolerance for people like Rick Warren who believe women and gays are subhuman, and use slick language to disguise their true feelings? Like, women and men are equal. They just have different roles to play. Give me a break! And black people are equal to white people, they just shouldn't eat in the same restaurants, attend the same schools, be elected President of the United States and so on.

I am taking a sociology course, and the other day we got into a heated discussion about certain "cultural" and "religious" practices, and whether we have the right to impose our "western ideals" on other cultures. We talked specifically about female genital mutilation. one man had the audacity to call me a "bigot" because I called this practice barbaric and said it should be banned worldwide. As far as I'm concerned there are certain inalienable rights that EVERY human being has, regardless of their country of origin. Just because some uses religion to justify something, doesn't mean we have to tolerate it.

Also, you mention that not all christians believe homosexuality is wrong. Then they are not true christians. The bible clearly states that it IS. I think it is very hypocritical of them to pick and choose like that. Either you believe the bible is the word of god or you don't.

I just don't understand why someone would choose a life partner who believes in things that they think are wrong? I love animals for example, and could never date someone who took pleasure in killing them for "sport". I don't think that is being intolerant. It is living by my convictions. Quite frankly I don't think christians should date atheists either! In fact, the bible specifically prohibits this. And I totally understand why! There are a host of problems that could arise. For example, what about premarital sex? Living together? Using birth control? What about equality in a relationship? All things the bible prohibits. Also, a basic tenet of christianity is to try to convert non believers and get them to accept Jesus. I had to end a friendship with a woman who was a devout christian, because she believed it was her god ordained duty to convert me and save me from going to hell. A person's religious beliefs often color their entire worldview, and it is difficult(if not impossible) from them to seperate their beliefs from how they view the world. Their religious beliefs taint how they see everything. It even influences the types of movies they will watch or the music they will listen to.

Well, these are just my thoughts. I am always interested in hearing how other atheists think about these things.

I will admit to having a HUGE problem for religion. When I was a teenager I had a close friend who committed suicide. He was gay, but was afraid to come out because we came from a VERY conservative town, and his family were devout christians. I encouraged him to come out, and he eventually did. His family tried to "save him" and when that didn't work they disowned him. He ended up killing himself because of this. And he believed that he would go to hell. Even though he was one of the kindest, most loving people I ever met. How terribly tragic and sad. This isn't an isolated incident either. There are numerous examples of how religion has caused people pain. I really do see it as the root of all evil. So why should I tolerate it? Don't get me wrong. They are free to practice their religion and believe what they will. I simply want no part of it.

Erin

ANSWER: Erin:

Believe it or not, no clarification was needed.  I *totally* get your point of view, and have a very similar one, myself.

The only "flaw" I see with your reasoning is with regard to the hypocrisy of some Christians.  You're painting a pretty black and white picture of it, but there really are some gray areas.

There are, for example, Christians who view the bible not as the inerrant word of God, but as "inspired" by God... but still subject to interpretation.  For these people, it's less "picking and choosing" than simply a different perspective.  (Though, yes... this is very close to "picking and choosing.")

But anyway... I really do empathize with your views... especially with regard to respecting the beliefs of others.  I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want, but I do not have to respect those beliefs... and in many cases, I don't.  The person who called you a bigot over your anti-mutilation views is clearly someone with his head up his butt.

Very, very sorry to hear about your friend.  I'm a suicide prevention counselor, too, so this is something very important to me.  

I also would like to say that I admire your convictions.  More power to ya.

--Vince

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your thoughts with me on this. You are right that not all christians believe that the bible is infallible. I have heard some say that we must take what is written in the bible into a historical and cultural context. The bible was written a very long time ago, and a lot of what was written simply can not be applied to modern day society. Something many christians can't accept is that things change. Everything evolves. Even language! It is possible that certain words used in the bible had a different meaning at the time it was written than it does now. It is also fair to say that some of the beliefs held by people in biblical times were a result of ignorance. Plain and simple.

I am sure as a suicide prevention counselor you have dealt with gay youth who are struggling to accept themselves. I would imagine it must be a very difficult job, but it must also be very rewarding. If you can save even one person, it is worth it right? I wish I could have saved my friend. It was many years ago, but I still think about him often. And all the other kids out there who are going through what he did. It's hard to feel good about yourself when you are constantly being told that you are "abnormal" and "sick" and that "god" doesn't love you.

I do have one more question for you, if you don't mind. I would like to say I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this matter with me and share your perspective with me. Did you hear about a study that was done that found that the higher a persons IQ was, the less likely there were to be religious? A friend of mine told me about it, but I don't recall hearing about it. Also, do you know what percentage of Americans consider themselves atheists? I know we are a small minority, but I was just curious. I think most people choose to believe in god because it fills a need for them. In my opinion, it is a fear of ones own mortality and a lack of confidence in ones own ability to get through life and face life's challenges that is at the root of religions popularity. It's no coincidence that people often turn to "god" or religion when they are going through a hard time. Too bad people can't find the strength within themselves or find strength in the people around them, instead of having to turn to some mythical being. Thanks again for your time. I will be nominating you for volunteer of the month!

Erin

Answer
Hi, again!

Yes, I have heard about the study you mentioned, although the results were not as clear-cut as your friend states.  While atheists scored higher, as a group, than those of dogmatic beliefs, they did not score higher than all religious groups.  Jews, for example, scored higher than atheists.

As for atheists in the general population (and I'm assuming you mean the U.S. population), there have been several different polls over the years that looked at this in different ways.  Most of them lump all non-believers into one category.  As you might expect, no two surveys came up with the same percentages, but to say that 15% of U.S. citizens identify as non-religious would probably be safe.

Thanks for the kind words, Erin.  I've enjoyed answering your questions.  And I normally don't pitch my work in this forum, but I'm going to:  http://onenationundergod.info.

Take care, and I hope to hear from you again.