Expert: Philip A. Stahl - 6/4/2011

Question
QUESTION: I have came to the conclusion after years of religion studies , philosophy, and science that if there is any creator he is completely unknown to us as humans under any specific deity. I am still perplexed at the fine tuning of the universe though...would I fall under the category of an agnostic theist, agnosticism, deist..or would I be an atheist? Thank you

ANSWER: Hello,


According to author George Smith ('Atheism: The Case Against God', p. 9):

"The term 'agnostic' does not, in itself, indicate whether or not one believes in a god. Agnosticism can be either atheistic or theistic. The agnostic theist believes in the existence of god but maintains the nature of god is unknowable. The agnostic atheist maintains that any supernatural realm is inherently unknowable by the human mind, but suspends his judgement one step further back."

On this basis, it would seem to me that you'd be categorized as an agnostic atheist, as opposed to agnostic theist. (Since you certainly don't accept the existence of God maintaining only Its nature is unknowable.)

Of course, there are no hard and fast lines dividing any of these definitions, and one might find others apart from Smith with more generous (or less) definitions of "agnostic".

I would not say you're an atheist (e.g. 'atheist atheist') outright, since you still maintain a state of fundamental doubt on what can be known to us or not. The explicit atheist, by contrast, doesn't necessarily "deny" the existence of a God but only argues that the probability of its existence (based on all the evidence assembled hitherto) is next to nil. (The 'implicit' atheist, maybe the weakest form, simply withholds belief pending the presentation of evidence for the claim from the theist. This position itself is predicated on there being knowledge, else there could be no evidence to present! The basis is that evidence must rest on there being some kind of knowledge, however rudimentary.)

Hope this clarifies the definitions!

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you kindly! I appreciate it, you clarified things for me a great bit. Would you know of any websites for me to read up on or books? I try to stay up on Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens, but looking for other thoughts as well..thanks!!

Answer
You're more than welcome!

I'm not sure of any websites (that wouldn't add to confusion because so many povs are often taken), but there are three books of mine that have been out and address trhe whole gamut of issues, definitions including the ties of atheism to the philosophy of Scientific Materialism- as well as the proposal of a basis for an objective morality predicated on Materialism (Ch. 6 of the first book listed below).

That first book: 'The Atheist's Handbook to Modern Materialism', is available at amazon.com, e.g.

http://www.amazon.com/Atheists-Handbook-Modern-Materialism/dp/1570875391

As well as my book: 'Atheism: A Beginner's Handbook' (see upper left of amazon web page).

The first represents a very ambitious effort to show the warp and woof of atheism's foundations in modern scientific Materialism. Some feedback disclosed it may have been a tad too much for many, hence the Beginner's Handbook was done as a follow -up. Thus, if you do decide to get both, it may be best to read the latter first. (Also, note you can get some very reduced used copies of the first at amazon, for 2.89 or so)

Another book, completed about two years ago is: 'Dialectical Atheism' - also available at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Dialectical-Atheism-Philip-Stahl/dp/0557101115/ref=sr_1_1?

which encompasses debates I've had with theists (including my hardcore fundamentalist brother preacher) and Deists over decades, It basically shows how one atheist chose to debate and parry the thrusts of religionists in differing venues.

Hopefully, you can find something in one or the other of these books, to get more perspective.

Another book (but rather more heavy going) you may find of interest is the Oxford University Press imprint: 'In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion', which examines religion and humanity's investment in it as an evolutionary aberration.

Finally, you may also find of interest:

'The Atheist's Way' - by Eric Maisel

and

'The Atheist Manifesto' - by Michel Onfray

Good reading!