Expert: Bob - 8/17/2004

Question
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Followup To
Question -
I had a debate with a friend about this.  He had challenged me by asking if I believed in real goodness in the world.  I said, yes it is possible for goodness to exist without God.  He then said if I believe in goodness, then I must believe in an absolute, perfect goodness, because then how would I know if something is good without a Platonic ideal to measure up to?  Then it comes to reason that this perfect goodness has to be God Q.E.D. God exists.

Hmm.  His argument feels sound, but it's definitely not original to him.  In the realm of philosophy, what do you call this type of argument?  It sounds like sophistry to me, but I couldn't think of an easy answer to that.  How would you debate my friend?

Answer -
Hello Augusto,
  I would debate your friend by asking him where he gets his ideas about "Perfect Goodness." The bible is littered with examples of the condoned murder of women and children. The story of Moses speaks about god visiting a plague on the Egyptians that kills all the first born. So where is this "Perfect Goodness"? Through what ignorance can your friend even begin to associate religion with goodness? Tell your friend to read the Bible and to stop spouting off this idealistic nonsense.

         Bob  

Dear Bob,

You can extend your argument to say that God is just as responsible for the Holocaust, September 11, 2001 and other atrocities beyond the Bible and into the present day, since after all, permitting sin to happen is just as bad as committing it.

I am an ardent atheist, but I understand a dialectic is necessary to strengthen our side on the issues.  Being dismissive only makes us look as bad as some close-minded Bible thumpers.  I'll play devil's advocate here and say a few things on my friend's behalf:

First, my Christian friend used a procedural method to arrive at his conclusion.  The accounts that occurred in the Bible were written by extremely biased men and is not necessarily what God really did.  Pages of Scripture would not make very sound evidence for the atheist defense.  

Second, there IS goodness in the world.  People commit charitable acts,  new medicine saves lives, raindrops on roses, whiskers on kittens, tax refunds.  Anything that gives meaning and pleasure to your life qualifies as good.  True, people experience goodness in highly variable amounts, case by case, but its existence is undeniable.  What is to account for that?  My friend could argue that without the existence of evil, people would not recognize good.  Without the darkness, the presence of light has no meaning.

It's like playing a game of chess.  Once in a blue moon, God may let us take back a move (aka a miracle).  But if he let us do it all the time, it wouldn't really be a game.  He's got to let some pain in the world, so that when we say we love Him, He knows we're speaking from our hearts.  Without being able to choose good over evil, we might as well be a chair or a table, not a human being.  (Furniture never has to worry about moral dilemmas) In a sense, this is
a way one can argue how God shows His love.

As an atheist, I would argue why it is necessary to punish innocent lives to such an unfairly extreme degree, even killing children who know no better, just to make this point, but I'm not much of a debater.  What would be your response to this counter-argument?  

Answer
Hello Augusto,
 First of all I would debate your assertion that taking pages from scripture would not make very sound evidence for an atheists defense. The religious, especially the non-theologians have learned about there own Bible almost as if it were written in sound bites. The pages of the Bible ARE filled with unspeakable violence that IS condoned by god. If you truly want to debate your friend I really would suggest that you both start by reading the Bible...All of the Bible.
 As far as the rest of your "Devils Advocate" argument I would say that frankly I am a little surprised that you would be drawn into such a ridiculous debate. I would suspect that you really are playing the Devils Advocate and are not really an Atheists at all. To suggest that all goodness starts with god is like saying that the fact that the day is filled with light, while completely ignoring the existence of the sun, is proof that god exists because god is the source of all light. Good and bad "Evil" exist in the world because of the moral code that we are brought up with, we perceive something to be good because that is how we are taught. Want proof?...... Your own ideals of good and bad hold true only as long as you stay in your own culture...leave your culture and all bets are off. Jeffery Dahmer was an evil man because he was a part of this culture. People still eat human flesh as a part of their daily existence and are supported by their own culture while doing it. They are not seen as evil men but as religious or holy men.....
         
         Bob