Expert: Lisa Tyler - 5/26/2009

Question
QUESTION: I am good friends with a girl I work with, and have been gradually getting closer during the six months we have worked together.  There have been four distinct phases of our relationship together, which have been separated by her boyfriends attitudes towards her and myself.  

I make no apologies for falling for someone who has a boyfriend.  She means the world to me and we are very close friends.

When she first started working at my company we became very close friends, me having just broken up with my long term girlfriend, and herself finding her relationship was having problems.  We helped each other through difficult times and at this stage I had no romantic aspirations with her at all, we were just friends, but we were speaking openly about a lot of what most people would consider private issues including our sex lives, issues about her boyfriend cheating on her in the past etc.

I found myself liking her very much.  We talked increasingly more frequently.  We started texting each other at work, even though we sit next to each other.  Most of the time we would text or talk until bedtime, even though she lives with her boyfriend.  She would even be texting me in bed.  During this period I put all my cards on the table and admitted I liked her a lot, and I would ask her out in a heartbeat if she was single.  She is everything I would want from a girlfriend, and it does upset me to see she puts up with someone who treats her like a slave.
She told me she wishes she could split herself into two and be with me, and that if she broke up with her boyfriend then she would go out with me.  Things were progressing quite well because I am much more like her than he is, we have the same interests, same personalities and I really do care about her a lot.  

Unfortunately, her boyfriend accused her of seeing me, even though she wasn't and he made her promise to not talk to me out of work.  She did what she was told, apart from when he wasn't there, when she would still keep talking to me or texting until late at night.  She found out that he keeps meeting up with other women, which he claims are just friends.  She threatened to kick him out, and put him in the spare room for a couple of weeks.

This led to the current phase, where she told him she will talk to whoever she likes and he cant stop her.  I now speak to her throughout every single day of the week at home and in private by text at work.  She did tell me she wishes her boyfriend was much more like me, and I replied that I wish I was more like him, as he was with her, and I was on my own.  That went down predictably well.

Another employee we work with asked her if she would dump her boyfriend and get together with me, seeing that we are so close, and move in together.  She replied not a chance in hell, as she has a boyfriend.  I was not exactly thrilled by that reply, but soon afterwards she told me that she has to make it very clear she has a boyfriend to everyone else, but never intended to hurt me.

In the last two weeks I told her if I have no chance with her then I would like to know.  Her reply was to point out that if you don't try to get something, you wont ever know if you could have had it.  It just seems like she is playing with me.  

I don't think I am totally gullible, even if it does look like I am.  I have had a few relationships with cryptic women before, although this one is really difficult to understand.  It seems every time I take a step forwards, I say or do too much and end up taking two or more steps backwards.

I am resolved to totally ignore her, apart from my work related job of being her trainer.  Is this a good course of action, or does it seem like she really does have feelings for me?  She says we are just good friends, but that who will know what will happen in the future.

Am I stupidly being taken advantage of?  Some of my friends think so.  Some think she is interested, but too afraid of losing what she has for a chance that I am a much better prospect, as she has said herself, she wishes she had met me when she was single.

Am I right to ignore her?  Or should I try to keep working on getting things together, now that things seem to be going well.  She is my dream woman, and it is hurting a lot not knowing what my best course of action is.

ANSWER: Hi Marc,

I tried to answer this question a day or two ago, but we've been having incredible thunderstorms here and I have to unplug during storms.

First, I totally understand that you feel you've found your soul mate and that being her friend and possibly more is natural.

I might be able to give you some insight into a possible reason for her behavior.  It sounds very much to me that she is a co-dependent person to an abuser.  Which just means that she has been "brow beaten" emotionally to a point that she cannot get the courage to precipitate the breakup with this man she is with.

She may see in you great qualities that would make a nice life, but the relationship she has with the bad boy type has a very deep hold on her.  She is used to it.  She is enabling him to be the character HE is by staying with him.  It's a vicious circle.

If it were possible for you to create the breakup and at the same time protect both of you from harm from this man, you might get her away from him for a few days, but that would only make her desire HIM even more.

The reason that I can tell you this, is that I have been in her shoes.  I tried and tried to get free from someone, but he had put so much guilt into my soul that I HAD to keep trying to please him.

It's a very bad situation.  It CAN be fixed, but it may take a very long time of waiting for her.

If you could agree to run off somewhere together, (move away), she might go, but in her heart she'd be suffering from what she had done to the boyfriend for about 7 years.  (It seems to take 7 years to be totally free from a mate we're intimate with.)

The reason you feel that she is playing with you, is that she's at the end of her fantasy flirtation with you.  It's time now to jump and go with you, or tell you goodbye, and she cannot do either.  In her heart she longs for you, but she knows it's not possible to leave this other man yet.

(I am a bit puzzled though about why she's denying her feelings for you to the coworkers, unless it embarrasses her that they find out how weak she is, or afraid they will tell the boyfriend.)

IF she were to find him sleeping with someone else and was angry enough to have the big blow up, she could leave at that time.  But I warn you, he'll call her and beg her back and she'll take him back, unless you move in quickly and make it impossible for him to contact her.

You will have to supply the emotional rush for her from then on.  

If you get her as your girlfriend or mate, I recommend that you change your approach to her slightly.  You will have to become stronger and a bit more like that boyfriend to keep her.

Your will has to be stronger than hers, and you will have to make demands on her, or the new relationship with you will seem too strange to her for it to stick.

You will not have much worry about her running off with someone else if you do that.  

Is it still worth it to you?  And if you were to succeed, and she was yours, can you imagine the future?  Would it be as you have dreamed, or would it now be sour?

Remember that we draw to ourselves people and situations that are vibrating in harmony with our own thoughts and feelings about ourselves.  Because of that, examine yourself and see what it is about her that makes you desire her.

I don't blame you if you hold onto hope and remain her friend, but I do have to warn you that your texting to her is a disaster waiting to happen.  There should never be anything written down that he could see, because she can't protect herself or lie her way out of it if he finds it.

And he will not likely drop her if he thinks she's cheating on him.  Instead he'll punish her and treat her worse, and hold her tighter.  Abusers and co-dependents don't let go of their "other half".  They don't feel able to.

Try to find some other way to stay in touch, but don't do it in writing or where there is a phone record he can check (such as incoming calls on caller ID or cell phones).  It will take some work but you can figure it out.

Write back if you'd like to discuss this, and you can write to me at my email address:  chastityrose@yahoo.com

I will be praying for you both, and if I can think of something else that might help, I'll offer that too.

I hope you'll keep in touch and that there will come an event that she can use to break up with him.  Then will be your chance.

God bless you.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Lisa,

There is no need to appologise for taking one day to reply.  You was not slow at all and I thank you for taking your time to reply to me.

I can hopefully answer some of the confusing parts of my message.  I am not aways very clear when discussing how I feel about her!

Firstly, can I say it is good that someone else thinks she actually does like me. I was beginning to think it was more hope than any actual promise of something being there.

The odd thing is she gives the impression it is her in control of her relationship to everyone she meets.  However in getting to know her better myself, I found out it is definately him in charge.  He goes away on lads weekends without her and gets up to all sorts, but she still beleives he is innocent, despite damning photographs appearing showing he has lied about everything he does.  While he was with her, he still took his old girlfriend out for dinner, and stayed at her house over night.  For some unknown reason she beleived him when he said it was innocent.

I am willing to wait for her, she is very special to me.  It probably sounds hopelessly silly, but just seeing her brightens up my day no end.  We both have a positive effect on each other just being near one another.

The reason neither of us want people at work to know is because life would become very difficult.  There is a lot of banter and it would become hell if everyone knew I liked her.  It would not be too bad if we were together, but while she is with someone else it would not be good for either of us.

I am not sure he abuses her, at least not in a physical way.  He does his best to destroy her self confidence though.  He repeatedly tells her she is not attractive, and but that its okay because its only her personality that counts.  This really upsets me knowing she actually beleives this.

I am not a saint myself by any stretch of the imagination.  The last woman I was seeing was married herself, so I am wary that does not give me a good image as it is.  She is well aware of this part of my past, indeed she knows all about all my previous relationships.  

I desire her because she is the first woman I have ever met that I feel completes me.  She is funny, sexy, we talk for hours about absolutely nothing.  I just feel I can't compete with her boyfriend who seems to treat her badly.  It is not even that he is good looking, because she herself says he isn't.

The texting and email thing I agree is a bad idea.  Except that I want him to find out.  I am hoping that because it is her idea we use personal emails and texts, that they will split up over something he reads.  Is that wrong of me?  I feel guilty even thinking it, but I continue to hope it will happen anyway.

If she was with me, I would give her the life that she wants.  She knows I can, because quite frankly I am well paid in my job, and her boyfriend is a student with little income, who she is supporting on her own wage which is not that much.  

I am convinced he is using her to further his own ends.  When they were talking about moving house, she was interested in having a house with him, while all he could think about was the money they would make selling it on.  I just have no idea how I can make her see reality without destroying any chance I have with her.

She tells me he is on his final warning.  Do you think it would be appropriate for me to mention this if he breaks his promise again? Or do I have to trust that she will do the right thing anyway?  


ANSWER: Hi Marc,

Thank you for your letter and rating.  :)  Isn't it silly that it matters so much to us what people think of us?

Definitely she likes you, Marc, and you are probably the only good thing in her life right now.  She is being very untrue to herself and you can expect her to develop health problems down the road from this.  It happens.  We can't fool ourselves.  Our subconscious minds know that we know better, and that we're betraying ourselves.

I understand about the work situation.  Very sad that she is supporting him, but of course that's all part of this behavior.  Very typical.  He's most definitely using her, and it's not likely she'll admit it.

You see, we CAN see that it just keeps going wrong.  We can see that they lied and they betrayed us again, but we still feel powerless to make a change.  In my case, it's because I have such a strong aversion to conflicts.  I have tummy problems and (now) more serious health problems.  

(Perhaps practice arguing and demanding her way, learning to say no, etc., would help.)  It's also typical for a woman to try to use strong emotions for another man to pry herself out of the bad relationship.  She also hopes that this new man will help save her and support her until she can get on her feet.  (Because she no longer believes she can do it on her own.  Even though she is actually the one supporting him.)

It is likely that she had a similar start in this type of relationship.  In the beginning I was very dominant and strong willed, happy with my life etc.  Then I married a boy I thought would be good for me and he was emotionally unstable.  Immediately he undermined my self esteem.  I felt that he and his family wanted to change me to be acceptable to them.  There is always a pecking order so to speak in a group.  Like with a litter of puppies, they quickly determine who is going to be strong and who will serve the others.

This is very subtle at first but VERY effective.  Little things said, like how you mentioned he tells her she is not attractive but that's ok...etc.  Notice how cleverly he worded that.  It says to her subconscious, I'm the only one who is going to accept you - you need me.

At the same time, she knows how flawed HE is and is trying to help him overcome his evil.  Does she seem like a really good person inside?

What she needs is a clear vision of who she is, how wonderful she is, how much you love her and that she has the authority and power to choose her life, leave him, etc.

Any self help conferences, or self improvement seminars, tapes, books etc., you can find will help build her up.  One book I'm thinking of is by Dr. Wayne Dyer "Pulling Your Own Strings".  That might help although it's not on this particular subject.

It's not surprising you are leaving clues for the boyfriend to find, (her too evidently) but you must realize that it could mean a beating or some permanent injury to her.  Depending on how bad he really is.

And that it's not likely to make him leave her.  Most likely it will only make him sleep around more because he won't even feel THAT guilty anymore.

He'll just think worse of her, treat her worse and hold her down tighter so she can't see you or have any fun.

Not all abusers are "bad people" or sleep around.  My husband was really nice to everyone else.  In the whole world, his whole life he never made an enemy.  But to me and our children, he was overbearing and demanding.  (He finally committed suicide.)

What she is doing is trying to live a good life with her relationship with you, and staying true to him to satisfy her need to be faithful and to finally "win".  She wants to be right and to have things work out right.  Unfortunately the world is not set up to be that way.  We just don't understand that.  LOL

So in her mind, she's fractured herself into two people.  The one who is with you and the one who is with him.  I suppose it would be nice if you realize that and be gentle with the "two" of her, as long as you don't mind waiting for the break.

Keep the idea before her.  Remind her now and then that as soon as he does something horrible, to let you know.  Have a plan worked out of how she can escape and where she could go.  Think of things such as the money for a bus/cab or whatever transportation to get to you any time of the night or day.

Perhaps bringing some of her belongings to your house would tilt the scales in your direction, but don't let him see her taking them out, or notice it.

We're very attached to our belongings, so she'll want to be where they are also.

If you do break up with HER in the future, before she's actually moved in, please give her back her things kindly.

I can't think of more at the moment, but may again.  Feel free to write more.  I'm here.  God bless you both.  Try to include God in your affairs and ask for His help, because it can mean a big difference.

It has for me.  :)  Take care, Marc.  Write when you wish.  Have a good safe week.





---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Lisa,

She is a really good person. She is very selfless and even at work people take advantage of this fact to give her all the horrible jobs, unless I am around to speak up for her.

I know the circumstances of her relationships beginning, which was she had never had anyone show an interest in her and he came along while she was 19.  She has admited herself she felt really down that no one ever asked her out.  She had self confidence problems and so was always going to accept.  She has told me she wishes she had met me when she was younger and single.  It is like she has given up on changing things.

Suddenly someone does show an interest in her.  It makes her feel wanted.  He is her first boyfriend, and I am aware from myself and others that people often feel like they have everything great even though it is not really, but as they have no experience of anything else, don't realise it.

She can't really leave him.  It is her house, so he would have to leave her, or her kick him out.  I am not exactly confident either will happen as she is very timid, not until he passes his course and no longer needs her financial support anyway.  

She can drive and has her own car, so if she needs me she can see me any time.  She knows any time of day, if she needs me, I will be there for her.

I can't imagine he would physically hurt her.  I don't think he is that sort.  If he did, I would be obliged to step in.  I would gladly take a beating if it saved her from one. It would likely be my fault anyway if he found out half the things we discuss.

She believes she is happy with him.  Even though she tells me of all his faults, she thinks she is lucky to have someone like him.  It is really disheartening to hear her tell me these things.

Some days, like today, she can be really distant.  I know she has a problem at home, but she is just telling me that she is tired.  I am being shut out again, and this happens when she feels guilty about me making her feel wanted or that I show up her how her boyfriend is treating her.

We have no physical relationship at the moment.  There has been nothing that can be interpreted as cheating, although her boyfriend is suspicious as I am the only male friend she has.  Some of the messages between us could easily be seen as cheating though.

I am just unsure as to the best course of action.  Should I keep giving her compliments and continue to try to win her over, or take a step back and effectively leave her on her own to discover what she is missing?  

Once again, thank you for your advice :)  It is very helpful to have an objective opinion, as everyone else I have asked knows either myself, or both of us, so could possibly have ulterior motive.  

Answer
Hello Marc, good morning.  :)

I'm glad that you can confide in me.  I wish I had more information about how to break her out of that rut, but if he's not really that bad for her, she may never get stirred enough to change.

If you were to suddenly pull back, while she is in one of these distant moods, it would probably send her deeper into depression, to where she might need buoying up again.

If it were me, I'd remain her friend, but perhaps begin talking about positive, cheerful plans for the near future.  Not necessarily dependent on her leaving him, but rather, to help her anticipate joy and take an active part in creating her life as she wants it.

Give her suggestions of things, ask her what she is interested in doing if she could do anything in the world at all.  Talk about this Christmas, or this summer.  Something she might be able to do, or oversee.  A party planned?  A volunteer group helped out?  I'm not sure what would thrill her, but anything you can think up that she might perk up for.

Part of our problem is we feel we can't make quality decisions.  We believe that all our decisions are faulty, we're no good.  Etc.

Give her opportunities, or point out to her opportunities where she can make small decisions and see how well they turn out.  Each one builds on the last, and she might be able to walk herself out of this low self esteem.

Look for a seminar or course the two of you could do together.  (She might be more willing to do it, or less offended if you suggested it, if you were both doing it together.)

I'm thinking Anthony Robbins, Bob Proctor, Bob Doyle, etc.  I'm sure there are a million good ones.  I have a friend in Cornwall who buys them, and I'll ask him what the best course would be for this.  (I think he owns them all.)

Imagine if you had given up on life, deferring to others and felt you had no power, no hope on your own.  If life is bearable, although tedious and disheartening, you won't really do much to change it unless you can clearly "see" yourself in another role.  The one she needs to see herself in, is being the best possible expression of the abilities and place in the world that she can be.  

Not just the best at doing all the dirty work for the office or the boyfriend, but just possibly that God had a plan when He put her here, something grand and glorious that only SHE can do.

And that she might be missing out on it.  Are you familiar with the Bible story about the servant who hid his master's talents and was punished for not at least investing them in a bank where he'd get interest?

In this story, a talent was a coin, but I think perhaps it had a double meaning.  Talents and all God given opportunities, to be used to the fullest, or wasted.

Have you heard about the study done with frogs in boiling water?

A frog who is dropped into a pot of boiling water will quickly jump out.  A frog who is put into a pot of cold water and slowly brought to a boil will remain there until his death.

I'm saying, if her life is just slowly boiling, she may not see the need in jumping out.  Show her her own strengths and talents and a way to apply them one small thing at a time to build self confidence on.

I'm sure there is also beauty in her, as in all people.  Feeling beautiful is a great thing.  Would she be offended if you arranged for her a beauty makeover?  It would not be good if she thought you were judging her or found fault with her, but if it could be conveyed that you wanted her to see in herself what YOU see in her, perhaps it would be a great gift.

The whole point though is not to push or inundate her, but to remain steady, sensible and always right.  So she can trust you and your judgment.

Give her this time to rest and recoup.  All people go through cycles, and perhaps she's at the low end of hers.

I wish there was something more you could gain from this time of waiting.  But I suppose even though you don't have exclusive rights to her friendship, and don't have a physical relationship, that you can still continue to enjoy the closest friend in your life.  :)

As soon as my friend responds to my email, I'll give you the suggestions on what program might give her some empowerment.

I'm here whenever you want to talk.  Hope I can be of help.  God bless you!

Lisa

PS:  I think you're a wonderful friend for her and would be a great mate.  I am cheering for you!