Expert: Rob Painter, ASE, CFL, CFEI - 4/15/2009

Question
QUESTION: I had my explorer stolen and the insurance company is giving me a hard time. They recovered the truck and it had smoke damage due to an internal fire that was set by the thiefs and classed as a write off. I told them i can't find one of the sets of keys. they are insisting that the truck couldn't be stolen without the key. I am not convinced that the thiefs had the second set of keys. I think they are implying that I may be involved. As you can imagine I am very upset. It is possible that one of my sons friends may have taken the keys but I have no way of knowing. My question is that if the keys are just lost is it possible that the thiefs took the truck without the keys.

ANSWER: Hello,

As I stated in an answer yesterday to someone else that is going to be denied coverage (happens all the time because the insurance investigators) (retired cops) and their hack experts always feel the insured was involved when the magnificent transponder antitheft system is in question.

Yes, there are ways the vehicle can be taken without keys, but they don't want to hear it. They would rather accuse you because according to these uninformed ignorrant idiots, such vehicle is impossible to steal.

In reality, it is a consumer scam. The insurance company denies 100% of these claims and figures no one will fight them. Depending on the state you live in, it can be very costly to them in a bad faith case. The problem is, that no matter what you tell them, it falls on deaf ears. There are also the "Independent" forensic Locksmith hacks that may even try to make you believe they can determine the last key used. Don't believe this tripe. There are only two ways to determine last key used. There is nothing independent about 95% of these goofs because their living is made from their exclusive client-the insurance company.

One is to have the key installed at the time of the examination. The other is with a very unique tool used in locksmith forensics--a Crystal ball!

You can't do anything until they deny your claim. Once they do, you contact me and retain me and it is possible depending on the state your are located in, I can refer an attorney knowledgable in these matters.

To my knowledge, I am the only national expert that successfully opposes the so-called experts. I quit counting at 100. My prevailing side case record is very real at 100-5.

I work for all sides and let the chips fall where they may.

The biggest problem is the use of locksmiths determining if a car was stolen. 95% of them in my opinion would not know a stolen vehicle. Locksmiths rarely know anything about how vehicles are stolen, but are used because it is common to think; how do I start my engine? With a key. Who makes keys? Locksmiths!

My background has been in the actual direct repair of more than 10,000 theft recovered vehicles. I hold as many if not more certifications these guys do as well.

They can't beat me on my training, background, experience or methodology, so insurance company attorneys and the hack experts tried to go personal and that backfired on them as well.

There was a case in MO that the insured was accused in criminal court of stealing and burning her own car. She was aquitted. I think it is still on my site http://www.autotheftexpert.com. The case was Hampton V. State Farm. You can google it as well.
When all was said and done after appeal, she and her brother got $8,000,000.00.

This is not the norm, but a great example.

I am not a lawyer, but I will tell you from experience that everything you say is recorded by the insurance company and I have also seen where there has been commentary about the insured's demeanor in insurance notes.

In my opinion only as an expert, that works many of these cases, I would recommend you not contact them anymore and wait to see what happens. That is not legal advice, just my professional opinion from working hundreds of these claims.

I will also warn you, they may try to intimidate you with offering to seek criminal charges. Innocense does not matter here. You are guilty until proven innocent as far as the insurance company is concerned. The difference here between one being arrested, they get their Miranda rights and are told anything they say or do can be held against them. You as the insured, have the same situation, but without the Miranda warning.

If I sound harsh, it's only because I have dealt with these issues for 11 years in about 14 states and even in a military court martial.

Look at my site and you will be enlightened.

Rob











---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: thanks for the response. The issue really is that I don't have the second set of keys they are missing. I originally said I had both sets. Having another Ford truck confused me on which keys were which. I called them and told them the second set were missing. I mentioned that a possibility could be one of my 18 year old son's friends whom come and go in our house may have taken them and was involved? the thing is I have no clue. I didn't know it is my job to investigate and find out what happenned. With the second set missing isn't it possible that someone took them and planned to steal this truck and did. The thing is I don't know what and how it happenned.

ANSWER: Hello,


I just spoke to someone today going through the same process. I will give you again my advice based on dealing with hundreds of cases and please take it. "Anything you say WILL be held against you by the insurance company!"

You can't lie because lies are hard to remember and the truth can be repeated over and over again.

By trying to be well meaning, you just put yourself in the jackpot! It's not your job to speculate on what happened to the truck. As you said, "they are the investigators." Let them investigate.

What you need to understand is they are looking for any reason possible to deny your claim. Sounds like a conspiracy which it is!

The investigator's job is to find any reason possible to implicate you. That is why ex-cops are used as well as intimidation.

You have to realize we are looking through 2 different prisms here. You are trying to help them and many from my experience are lazy and have only one thing in mind-How can we save our company money?

They know you are not experienced in answering their questions and they capitalize on that.

For years, the investigator (many companies) got a bonus for the money saved on claims they don't pay out. Many of these people think small time. I saw court records on a case in Illinois in which the unit saved the company from paying out $29 million in claims in a year. For each investigator, a $600 year end bonus was paid for this savings. Because of litigation, they were no longer called bonuses and they tacked other reasons for additional payment to insurance investigators.



It is common for the insurance company to assign the vehicle to be examined by an independent firm and as I said yesterday, always favors the insurance company. The independence of these outside "forensic" examiners is very questionable and I will give you an example: We subpoened the work records for five years for a firm. For 5 years exclusively, the firm only worked for insurance companies giving expert opinion. In the 5 years, the firm pulled in close to $1,000,000. This firm is small time though.

There is a firm in Michigan with over 20 examiners/investigators that pulls in almost $3,000,000 per year assisting in the denial of reported stolen vehicles. All but one from the firm have no mechanical knowledge and have never worked on a car, muchless a lock. The firm is all ex-cops!!! There is a correlation here as well. Let's see, you have ex-cops working at the insurance companies supplying assignments to other ex-cops! This industry is filled with good ole' boys, commonly against the insured to line their own pockets.

Years ago, I would not have said this because it would appear as though it was sour grapes. I really don't care anymore and in my opinion, it is what it is.


Because the insurance company has a fuduciary duty to the insured, they have to use outside vendors that will say what they need them to say.

As I said, this is your first experience. I have done hundreds of cases and that has been how I formed my opinion, based on my experience in these matters.

There is exception to the rule and there are a few good honest investigators out there that will go the extra mile.

From the time they take the job, they have it drilled in their head that everyone is scamming the deep pockets.

Yes, there is plenty of insurance fraud out there and I do not condone it. I feel insureds proven of fraud should go to jail.

As this industry exists however, where is the fraud? Is it insurance fraud or insurer fraud?

The experts I have successfulkly opposed have made statements about the vehicle that there is no way they can prove--ALL THE TIME!!!

When I oppose them and prove they cannot back up their statement with fact, they take it personal and get angry at me. Tough!!!


Let's take your truck for instance. It will be stated that this vehicle was last operated with a key of the proper type. Does the examiner confirm how many keys are programmed for the vehicle? No--almost never. We are supposed to take his word on it.

Did the examiner insert a key into the lock? If so, he just destroyed evidence! From my experience, many of these examiners are lazy. They look at the interior of the soot filled lock with what is commonly referred to as a borescope. Most of the time it is an Otoscope (the tool the doctor uses with a magnified light to check your ears). Almost never is the ignition lock removed properly, disassembled, cleaned and the wafers (tumblers) examined for newly made tool marks. Again, we must take the expert's word for what he said he observed with no photo documentation. Why?

It is common for these examiners to hide under the term "forensic", yet many don't even know the definitions. A majority of the exams I see from the experts I oppose could have been done by a 10 year old. Anyone can look at the interior of the ignition lock with a scope. Anyone can insert an ignition key and rotate the lock, and yet because the expert uses the title "forensic" in front of a jury and B.S.s his way through, he is the expert and should not be challenged!


Everything is assumed the vehicle was driven last and that is why the insurance company assigns "Ignition analysis and forced entry" to the examiner.

Because there is no evidence of forced entry, does not mean force entry was not employed. Look at your owner's manual and it explains only some of the factors that affect the locking of the vehicle with a keyless entry transmitter. You may have thought you locked it, when in fact it did not lock.

The expert may state the vehicle revealed no signs of towing. How did it get from the theft recovery site to the impound? How did it get to where it was examined? IT WAS TOWED!!!!


Just because the transmission shift lever is locked in PARK in the compartment, does not mean the linkage was attached or the trans was in PARK.

I could go on and on as to how the statements made by the experts are not accurate, but I think you have the point.

The next step will be that you will be asked for tax records and phone records. You have to supply or they will deny on non-cooperation.

As I stated, you are not alone and you have not seen how nasty it can get! This is all insurance companies.


At this point, just sit back and see what they will do. DON"T HELP THEM WITH SPECULATION!

Rob



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: you may find this funny> today I called Carstar whom has provided the report to the insurance company. The owner at carstar told me no one has showed up to look at this truck from the insurance company. so the interrogation I went through yesterday was based on pictures of the damaged steering column only, therefore the pictures that were sent to them is what they are basing their comments on how the truck was taken with the keys and implying that We were involved. Does that make sense. Today they called and want to interview my wife tommorrow since she was the last person to have been with the truck at the mall. I think you will advise that she goes so that it shows we are cooperating, do you agree? I am very upset that they are accussing us of being involved, I am considering getting a lawyer and suing them for their accusations.

Answer
Hello,

I am just explaining the normal procedure. It may have not yet been assigned to the examiner and they may tow it from Carstar to an auction.

What the SIU does is review the adjuster's photos as they are building a case. Right now, the claim seems to be in its infantcy. Some of these cases take years! Yes, you are upset and rightly so, but getting attorney to sue them is a waste of money at this point. The attorney may talk a good game to get your money and later you will find after time is invested that you forfiet, you get a bill for basically nothing.

At this point in the game, from what you told me, there is no such action.

You need to tell me what state you are in. Cases in Indiana and Michigan at least are not worth the time and effort for an attorney working a contingency.

You need to realize too, getting an attorney at this point will most likely not do anything for you because the insurance companies have the attorneys with themucle and are not intimidated whatsoever by plaintiff attorneys in these cases.

Contact me at robo14@aol.com

Rob