Expert: D.David - 2/13/2008

Question
QUESTION: Why don't baptists accept sprinkling or pouring as accepted forms of baptism?  Even to the point of not accepting those (sprinkled and poured) Christians as part of their church membership.  Isn't this marginalizing or disfellowshipping (just to keep the sect pure) going against the cause of Christ?

ANSWER: Sorry for the delay in replying your question.

 Baptism is an outward symbol of something that has happened in the heart.Our old self dies to sin and is reborn in Jesus Christ. Immersion symbolizes the burial of the old self and the resurrection into a new life through Jesus' power. A Public demonstration of death and resurrection should not be made unless this change has already begun inside. Burial follows death-death to self and to our old ways of sin.

 Burial in death takes place when the body is totally covered by mud in a grave; pouring or sprinkling a little dirt over the head of a dead body cannot mean burial. Likewise, if baptism is a symbol of burial, it should be completely buried in water.

  While the story of the thief on the cross(Luke 23:39-43) shows that one can be saved without baptism, the story of the Philippian jailer(Acts 16:33) shows that if we have the opportunity, we should be baptized. Both stories show that we should not delay any opportunity to make things right with God.

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QUESTION: Thanks for the answer to my question about baptism.  It sounds like you have used a bible verse for a proof text out from Romans 6:2-4. 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.  I think you may have added some ideas that are not supported by these verses.  It seems to me that this verse instead of talking about a ritual baptism using water is actually talking about a real baptism accomplished by the Holy Spirit.  With your assumption of ritual baptism the verse would read (with the ellipsis of water supplied) something like this:  “As many of us as were dipped in water into Christ, were dipped in water into his death; therefore we are buried with him by a dipping in water into his death.”  I think the baptism into Christ is a real baptism not a symbolic water baptism.  It’s more like:  “He shall baptize you by the Holy Ghost” or “Ye shall be baptized by the Holy Ghost” or “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh” or “We are all baptized into one Spirit into one body”   The verse seems to demand for a real superior regenerative baptism of the Spirit not a ritual inferior baptism with water.
If the aforementioned scripture is your proof text, are you substituting the word “bapto” (which means to dip) for the word actually in Scripture “baptizo”?  Baptizo, which means to immerse without limitation of time, totally under the influence of Christ. When reading this scripture one must ask if the text speaks of real baptism, accomplished by the Holy Spirit, or ritual baptism.  
Patristic phrases that talk about making the baptized object pass “into the sea”, “into the lake”, “into the river” subject the object to the permanent influence of the sea, lake or river for all time without being lifted out. The baptized into Christ referred to in the above scripture (baptizo not bapto) is the very demand of Salvation a permanent immersion into Christ that speaks not of a limited dipping but an unlimited amount of time united with Christ.  The nature of the immersion intimated by this verse speaks to the superlative nature of Salvation in the sense of the most unlimited, penetrating, controlling and assimilating influence exerted over the believer.   
         Romans 6:2-4. 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized (immersed for all time under the unlimited controlling and assimilating influence) into Christ Jesus were baptized (immersed for all time under the unlimited controlling and assimilating influence) into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism (immersed for all time under the unlimited controlling and assimilating influence) into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.  
Is Romans 6:2-4 referring to a real or ritual baptism and if ritual, is it a good hermeneutical principle for you to supply water by ellipsis?  


ANSWER: Having said what I said in your first question I would like to comment further.

The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.While it promises life to the obedient,it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past" an becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries: "Abba Father!"

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith?God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we,that are dead to sin,live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." (Rom.3:31,6:2,I John 5;3)In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought in accord with His law. When this mighty change takes place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has began. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom.8:4. And the language of the soul will be:"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Ps.119:97.


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QUESTION: I’m not sure if I understand the point you are trying to make in your answer to my last question?  The following are the verses you quoted and I have tried to read them carefully in context to understand the flow of your answer.  I think you’re quoting verses out of context trying to force them to prove that I’m not following some biblical law.  This assumed but unstated law must say that the only true Christian is one who has been dipped by ritual baptism - thereby fulfilling the righteous requirements of this assumed unstated  law.  Rather than seeing a baptismal formula for dipping (one on par with a commandment or law of God) commanded in your following verses I see something completely different.

Romans 3:31: RIGHTEOUNESS THROUGH FAITH- not adherence to law
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Paul’s comment in verse 31 seems to be a repetition of a point he hammers home again and again throughout all his writings as seen exampled in verses 27 and 28.  Man is justified by faith apart from the law, not by fulfilling the law’s demands.  I’m not sure what Paul’s stand on justification by grace through faith has to do with my original question on baptismal mode and then subsequent question concerning your interpretation of Romans 6:2-4 making the real baptism a ritual one incorrectly adding water to Scripture by ellipsis.
   
Romans 6:2:  A BELIEVERS UNION WITH CHRIST-under grace not law
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
I am not a libertine who is indifference to the ethical demands of the law.  I don’t see that my accepting Christians into my church who have been baptized by sprinkling or pouring puts me at odds with any of God’s laws.  What is being described in the above verses is a spiritual salvific reality of the deepest import-not a ceremony, not even a sacrament.

Romans 8:4: LIBERATION BY THE SPIRIT FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH-it’s love
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
All the righteous requirement of the law is met primarily in the believer through love not through following a specified baptismal mode.  Romans 13:8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 5:3: LOVE IS THE COMMAND TO OBEY-not adherence to a dipping baptismal formula
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Obedience to true agape love is the command.  To God and to others.

Psalm 119:97:  AND ON HIS LAW I MEDITATE DAY AND NIGHT- a tree planted by streams of water
97 Oh, how I love your law!
      I meditate on it all day long.

Your answer to my question seems to have put me in transgression, rebellion and disobedience to God’s law because I differ in my interpretation concerning baptismal mode.  If that is your position I don’t see that the above verses prove your point concerning my alleged disobedience to the law.  The verses above seem to speak more to the following   1:  righteousness by faith not law  2:  our union to Christ by grace not law  3: liberation from the law of sin and death and union to the law of the Spirit of life through Jesus  4:   God’s law is the law of love.

My questions still remain:     1:  Why aren’t Those Christians baptized by sprinkling or pouring accepted into your church membership?
  2:  Is your proof-text Romans 6:2 referring to a real or ritual baptism and if ritual, is it a good hermeneutical principle for you to supply water by ellipsis?      
         3:  When you see the word “baptized” does it always involve a dipping into water?  What about God the father who holds the cup of penal death to the lips of his beloved Son?  What about all the children of Israel “baptized into Moses”.  What about “baptized into the name of Paul?  What about Ireaneus: Baptism into Menander?  What about Augustine:  Baptized into Donatus?  What about Origen:  Baptized into Joshua?  What about Ambrose:  Baptized into Christ?  What about Paul:  Baptized into my name?  Are all these a dipping into water?


Answer
According to Scriptures,Sprinkling or pouring of water are not forms of Baptism. Baptism is a symbol of burial, (Col.2:12)baptism must be by total immersions. As Jesus was.(Mark 1:9-10,John 3:23)Various denominations have their own views and change of Biblical practice, on many issues not just on Baptism, which are not Biblical. Baptism is also a symbol of belonging to God's family,therefore a public demonstration is necessary according to certain denominations.

Rom.6:2 refers to both the baptism of Water and of the Holy Spirit.

The word "baptized" does not always mean the dipping of water. Here God the father holding a cup does not mean a real cup. But rather a cup is referred to "portion of suffering/blessing(Ps.23)"

The Children of Israel being baptized into Moses," God reminded the Hebrews of the miraculous ways in which the Hebrews were led from Egypt under the protection of the cloud by day and the fire by night. Thus they were safely conducted through the Red Sea, while the Egyptians, essaying to cross in like manner, were all drowned. By these acts God had acknowledged Israel as His Church.A sign of ownership as it were, of deliverance.

Baptism has a larger meaning, depending upon its own context. Yet Baptism will not save you, but you cannot be saved without baptism- of water and the spirit.