Expert: Rev. Robert Woods - 10/24/2008

Question
QUESTION: My family and I have been attending a Southern Baptist church for a while now and we have been baptized there.

I have become very interested in Orthodox Christianity, and my interest kind of bled into the rest of my family. We now to to a North American Orthodox Church some Sundays, and the Baptist church other Sundays.

I would like to know any reasons why I should not join the Orthodox Church.
Thank you for your time.

ANSWER: Blessings and thank you for your question.  

The Best way for me to answer this question is to look at it from two different ways.  First I want you to understand what we as Baptists Believe, then see what the Orthodox church says.

1.  Baptists: Baptists believe in one and only one living and true God. He is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience, spiritual, and personal being. He is the creator and ruler of the universe.  To God we owe all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.   The Eternal God reveals himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with distinct personal attributes.

Baptists Believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.  Jesus was begotten of the father before all the ages. Because we are sinners and had no hope of salvation, Jesus obediently came from the heaven.  He was made flesh by God through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.  Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God.  He took upon himself the demands and necessities of human nature without sin.  He honored God in every way.  He was crucified, suffered, and died for us.  Jesus was buried and was resurrection on the third day.  He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God.  He is the mediator, partaking of the nature of God and man.  He will return again in power and glory to judge the world. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.  

Baptists Believe in the Holy Spirit of God which came to us from The Father and The Son. The Holy Spirit exalts Christ, convicts us of sin, fills the believer, and calls us to the Savior.  The Spirit helps us to interpret Scripture and comforts believers.  The Holy Spirit gives us all manner of spiritual gifts to be used in obedience to the Father and service to the church.  The Spirit seals the believer unto the day of final redemption and empowers the believer in worship, gifts, evangelism, prayer, and service to God.

Baptists Believe that the Holy Bible is the word of God that was written by men.  It was divinely inspired (God breathed) and is a record of God’s revelation of Himself to us.  The Bible is the highest form of revelation that we have of God.  Baptists believe that no tradition, no new prophesy, no preacher or leader has a higher message from God than the Bible. The Bible tells us of the relationship between God and man since creation.  It instructs us on the principles by which God judges us.  The Bible is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in right living, so that we who belong to God may be proficient and equipped for every good work.  The Bible is without error but must always be taken as a whole and in its context.  The Bible is also a tool in which the Holy Spirit can speak to us.  All matters of faith are compared to the Bible, if anything is in contradiction with the Bible, then it is not of God.

The Church is an institutional instrument of the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is a local body of baptized believers who are associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of Christ’s Gospel.  The church observes and is committed to the ordinances and teachings of Christ. It should exercise all of the Gifts of the Spirit within the body as the Holy Spirit chooses to give.  The church is an autonomous body which operates through democratic process under Christ’s Lordship.  It has scriptural officers and members who are equally responsible.  The church of Christ also speaks of the whole Body of Christ which includes all redeemed believers throughout the ages.

Baptists believe that you must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in order to be saved, be part of the church and have a future with God in heaven.  “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9

The First day of the week is the Lord’s day.  It is a scriptural time to worship God.  Worship is a time of Active Celebration of God by those who believe in Him.  Worship is a participatory event not a spectator event.  Worship is Praise, Sacrifice, Celebration, Proclamation, Exaltation, and Thanksgiving to God.  It includes the singing of songs, hymns, and spiritual songs.  It includes giving back to God, humbling ourselves before God, testifying of what God has done, prayer, and hearing the Word of God with direction from the Holy Spirit.


Baptists believe that one day, in God’s own time, Jesus Christ will come again and usher in the end times.  According to Jesus’ promise recorded in scripture, He will return personally and visible in glory to the earth.  The dead in Christ will rise first and all believers will join him in the air.   The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment.

Baptists believe it is the duty and privilege of every follower of Christ to make disciples of all peoples.  We are to love one another, just as God loved us when we were unlovable.  The church is to support both individually and communally the missionary effort in our community and through our denomination throughout the world.  It is the duty of every child of God to seek constantly to win the lost to Christ by personal effort and lifestyle.  

Baptists believe that Christ’s people should be organized to cooperate together to further the kingdom of God.  This cooperation should be voluntary and should have no authority over one another or its member churches.  This cooperation should be maintained as long as the larger denomination stands for the same doctrine and purposes of the local church.

Members of the Church should also cooperate with the larger ecumenical body of Christ to elicit, combine, and direct the energies of God’s peoples in the most effective manner.  Christian unity is spiritual harmony and voluntary cooperation for the Kingdom of God without compromise of loyalty to Christ and His word.

2.  Orthodox:  Orthodox:  at one time all of the church was together.  There were no denominations.  The church began with Pentecost.  However the first group that split from the rest of the church was the Orthodox.  The split occured over two reasons.  First, a disput arose over who was "head" of the church.  Was it the Bishop of Rome (the pope) or the Bishop of Constantinople (at the time the center and capital of the new Christian Roman Empire).  Orthodox churches refused to believe in the infalibility of the Pope.  Secondly, Orthodox leaders rejected the "filoque doctrine” believing that Spirit comes only from the Father.    
Orthodox churches are often confused with Roman Catholics.  They have many of the same beliefs and worship practices.  In fact, in 1439 at the Council of Florence the two churches attempted to unite together again.  That union only lasted until 1450’s when the Orthodox churches left the Roman Catholic church under pressure from Muslims who had just conquered them.  The Muslims believed if that if the Orthodox left Rome then no world military help would come to their aid.
Orthodox churches reject the filioque doctrine.  Filioque is the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father.  Scripture reveals that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The external relationships of the persons of the Trinity mirror their internal relationships. Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son internally proceeds from the Father in the Trinity. Just as the Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), he internally proceeds from both Father and Son in the Trinity. This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).
Orthodox theologians teach that religious knowledge is derived from God's revelation of Himself. Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition (an oral tradition) are the two avenues through which this revelation comes to humanity. The church preserves the part of God's revelation that is not written down in Scripture. The Orthodox church is both the interpreter and caretaker of this revelation. They claim that this tradition has been preserved exactly as it was given to the church. It was first protected in the oral tradition of the church and was eventually written down in the writings of the Church Fathers. According to the Orthodox, Scripture and Tradition complement each other. Together, these contain the complete revelation that God has given to the church.
As Baptists, we do not believe in that “oral tradition” outside of the Bible.  While we do believe that God speaks to His people, we cannot justify matters of our faith on something that only a “few” know.  Baptists believe God’s word is for everyone and has made it clear through that word.
One important difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and evangelical Christianity is the way the two groups approach theology. Evangelical Christianity uses a creation-fall-redemption model to interpret God's revelation, while Eastern Orthodoxy uses a creation deification (theosis) principle. Evangelicals emphasize the results of the fall. Sin is a violation of God's law that warrants death. Jesus fulfilled the demands of the law by suffering the penalty of sin in our place. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to all who believe in Him. Salvation can only be received by grace through faith, and is not the result of good deeds.
Eastern Orthodoxy follows a mystical approach to God. They teach that God can be known experientially, but not intellectually. God transcends the ability of language to describe or human logic to understand. God is both unseen and incomprehensible. In other words, God is an enigma.
Since they believe that God is incomprehensible, Orthodoxy has not emphasized the development of systematic theology. Rather, they have stressed the achievement of a mystical union with God. This mystical union with God is referred to as deification (theosis).
According to Eastern Orthodoxy, the universe was created by a loving act of God. God created that which is not God. The creation possessed a nature distinct from God's. Yet, God's creation was blameless and deserving of His love.
God not only gives created beings their structure and variety, but He also gives them their energy. Through the process of creation, God has given His creatures their own energy. These beliefs form the basis of the Orthodox hypothesis of the "double movement." According to the double movement theory, God moves toward creation through the incarnation of the divine Logos. Through the logoi, creation proceeds in the direction of God. Creation naturally moves toward, not away from Him. In time, this movement toward God will end in creation partaking in the energies of God. As a result of moving toward God, perfection or deification is attained.
Eastern Orthodoxy believes that Adam was created as a child. They believe he was not a mature being and only possessed the capacity for perfection. Because of this view, Orthodoxy does not view the fall of humanity as seriously as evangelicals do. For the Orthodox, the problem of sin is not as grave as Western Christians assert. Orthodox theologians support this notion of sin by differentiating between person and nature. They reason that though humanity possesses the freedom to sin through an act of the will, humanity's nature is to be in communion with God. Because of this nature, and people naturally proceed towards fellowship with God.
According to the Orthodox, the sin of Adam and Eve affected only themselves. Their descendants inherited no sin or guilt because of the fall of the first parents. The fall resulted in their descendants becoming mortal and subject to physical death. This mortality resulted in an increased tendency to sin, but only because humanity was subject to physical needs. Humanity's mortality makes people prone to sin. The sin of Adam and Eve created a barrier of mortality between God and humanity. Only God could do away with this barrier. God removed this obstacle through the incarnation of Christ.
The incarnation made it possible for humanity to be united with God. Orthodox writers often refer to this union as deification. It is not a union with God's essence, but with God's divine energies. God reveals Himself through His energy. Through deification, humanity may participate in these divine energies.
The road to deification involves prayer, meditation, asceticism, and the performing of good deeds, as well as receiving the holy sacraments.  Consequently, Orthodox churches do not emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as much as they do taking the sacraments. They believe that receiving the sacraments provides a relationship with Christ. One may not achieve this union solely by the grace of God through faith.
As Baptists, we do not believe that “performing” for God through a sacrament is what saves you.  God is a personal God and wants a personal relationship with you.   Just doing this or that isn’t what pleases God, God wants YOU not what you can do for him.
The Orthodox understanding of Adam's fall results in an impaired view of the results of sin. In Orthodoxy, the result of the fall is mortality, not the doctrine of original sin.  Sin is real and only through the resurrected blood of Jesus can we be washed of that sin.  Only through acceptance of Jesus Christ, repentance and asking for forgiveness can we achieve forgiveness and eternal life.
The Orthodox teach that the sacrament of baptism provides participants with new life. They believe that faith in Christ and repentance from sin are not necessary for this new life. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Orthodox baptize infants. The sacramentalism of the Orthodox competes for the need of a personal faith in Christ as the means of salvation.
Orthodox affirm Mary and her perpetual virginity as well as her bodily assumption. They also give Mary the title "Mother of God."   As Baptists, we believe that Mary was the mother of Jesus, a great blessed woman.   However, we do not make statues or icons to worship and adore her.  We do not pray to her.  We believe that she had other children (as scripture affirms) and was a leader in the early church.
Remember that salvation does not depend on works or on your association with a church. It depends on a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. This relationship comes through faith (see Eph. 2:8-9).

3.  Why do we die?  The Bible says, "It is appointed for men to die" Hebrews 9:27.  Yet when it occurs, people have difficulty in accepting the reality of the event.  Paul called death "the last enemy" 1 Cor. 15:26.  He also taught that death entered the world as the result of sin, Romans 5:12.  If there had not been sin, there would have been no death, Romans 5:17.  Death is more than a natural phenomenon:  "The soul who sins shall die" Exek. 18:4  When Paul describes death as receiving the "wages of sin," he means much more than its inevitable consequence Roman 6:23.  Death is God's verdict upon human sinfulness Romans 1:23.  Jesus Christ conquered death when He overcame sin and the devil.  Spiritually, believers have already passed from death to life John 5:24, and the broken relationship with God has been restored.  Believers still face the weakness and pain that accompany dying, but they need not be afraid of death itself.  Jesus Christ the victor will finally overcome the last enemy also 1 Cor. 15:26, 54-57.
Our penalty for sin is death.  Sin is the reason we are condemned to Hell.  The only way to go to heaven is to have that sin forgiven.  The Bible says the only way to do that is to have salvation through Jesus Christ.  In fact, the Bible says no one or other way is available for salvation except Jesus.  John 14:6  “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”  You cannot get to God except through Jesus.
How are we saved? God wants you to know that you are a sinner and cannot save yourself. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) God wants you to know that Jesus Christ has already provided the way of salvation. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but will have everlasting life." (John 3:16) You must repent of your sins, confess them and forsake them. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9) God wants you to know that acceptance or refusal determines your destiny. "Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects Him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever." John 3:36  “Those who call upon the name of the Lord, will be saved Romans 10:13.   “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph. 2:8 If you wish to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life, then you must pray to God and let Him know that you believe, you repent of your sins, you ask for forgiveness, and you ask Him to save you and be your Lord (Master).  A Prayer would go something like this: "Dear God, I believe Jesus died on the cross for me and is alive today. I know I am a sinner. I am sorry for my sin. Please forgive me. I want Jesus to live in me as my Savior and Lord. Thank you for hearing me. In Jesus' name. AMEN."
All those who are saved go to heaven.  All those not saved, go to Hell.  It is that simple.
Remember, God does not send anyone to hell because they never heard of Christ or never accepted Him.  He sends people to Hell because they have sinned.  Romans 3:9-12 tells us “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:  "There is no one righteous, not even one;  there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;  there is no one who does good, not even one." Even a Child knows the difference between what is right and wrong.  As an adult, we cannot say that we are ignorant of what is right and what is wrong.  The judgment for sin will be in relationship to how much they knew.  A person growing up in the U.S. with a church on every corner will be judged more harshly than someone who never even heard the name of Jesus.  But even someone who grew up in an uncivilized jungle knows in his conscience that there is a god that is worthy of worship.  The Bible says his conscience will either accuse him or excuse him on the day of Jesus Christ.  God is not going to condemn people if their own consciences excuse them.  Regretfully, every human being has sinned against his or her own conscience.  God does not judge people for failure to believe in Jesus, but because they are sinners.  The Bible says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
What about those people in the Old Testament?  Before Jesus came to this earth, it was faith that put people in right standing with God.  Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (see Hebrews 11)
Original sin is the term for being born a sinner.  Remember, man was created in the image and likeness of God.  Man was a free moral agent, freely able to choose God or turn away from him.  By eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he did the one thing he was asked not to do.  Breaking God's one commandment to him was sin.  At that point Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden and cut off from the tree of life.  From that moment on, the spirit of man was damaged.  It is as if man is now born with a moral handicap.  He is lame in the most important part of his being- his spirit.  That is original sin.  There is a rebellious nature in most children.  They just like to do whatever you tell them not to do.  This natural rebellion stems from man's original sin.  Instead of being morally free, man has a decided tendency toward sin - urged on toward evil by what is called "the world, the flesh, and the devil."  Original sin is a tendency to do evil, not an act of evil itself.  God does not punish people for tendencies to do evil, only for what evil they do in light of what they know.  In other words, babies and children do bad things but do not truly understand the difference between good and evil.  They may even know that what they are doing is wrong, but they do not understand that it is evil.  Therefore, little babies and young children do not go to hell because of original sin, because babies have never committed any sinful acts.  So babies do not even need to be baptized until they are old enough to choose Christ and baptism themselves.
Baptists believe that once you are saved you are always saved.  That accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and believing in Him means you go to heaven.  Nothing else will give you salvation.  We believe that you are saved forever because: 1. there is security because of God's Promises (Romans 8:31-39), 2.  God's presence assumes security (John 10:27-30 & John 3:16), 3.  Because of God's power the believer is kept (1 Peter 1:3-5),  
My wife and I adopted a child.  We have come to love her just as we love our other 2 children.  Can you imagine that we would stop loving her just because she did something wrong or was disobedient to us?  When you are saved, you are adopted into the family of God.  You must, out of your love for God, try to live a Godly life.  Acts of sin or rebellion will take away the joy of salvation.  When David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed, he lost the joy of his salvation.  When he wrote Psalm 51 about it, he said, "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation." He had no joy, because he had rebelled against God.  He did not lose his salvation, only the joy of it.  Jesus said in John 10:29 that "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."  Once you belong to God, you can never be taken away.    There is a difference between being immature in Christ (that is still sinning) and rebellion (those who sin without salvation).
However while a person can not lose his salvation, a person can openly denounce God.  If a Christian were to become a Muslim or a Satanist, then they are publicly and spiritually saying that they denounce their salvation.
Hell is both physical and spiritual. It is a place and not simply a condition. It is the place where all those who have refused the gift of salvation from Jesus Christ go upon death. Jesus presented it as a place of eternal torment for the devil, his angels, and the sons and daughters of Adam who rejected him and his sacrifice for their sins.  It is a place of damnation where the fire is not quenched (Matt 23:33; Mark 9:48). Their soul leaves their body and descends into the physical place hell.  Now, at the end of time in Rev. 20:11-15, all those who died without Christ will rise from the dead.  Their literal bodies will reform and stand before God in judgment.  Then their bodies will join their souls in hell for eternity.  
It has been said that if Jesus is not God, then we should worship the man who thought him up. Never has anyone in history spoken the way he did.  I see that the teachings of Jesus are self-validating.  Throughout history, they have been proven true over and over again.  When the teachings of Jesus are put into practice, they lead to peace, harmony, victory, and love.  This does not mean His teachings do not bring conflict.  For evil will always fight against the truth.  Jesus' words pulsate with wisdom.  For example, about governments "Give to Caesar the things of Caesar and to God the things of God."  The teaching that God the Father is a Spirit, not a man or woman.  The Sermon on the Mount has a treasury of wisdom, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you."  Remember, "Love your neighbor as yourself."  
Ultimately, I know that Jesus is God.  The only true God.  I know this because of the Holy Spirit.  The Bible tells us that our faith is foolishness to those who do not believe.  When I accepted Christ into my life, the Holy Spirit of God became a part of me.  I can feel His power.  I know the truth as He reveals it to me.  It is an overwhelming knowledge, joy, and peace.  Most other faiths cannot claim that they have true joy and peace.  I have been with a lot of people when they have died.  I have noticed that Christians seem to die at peace.  But non-Christians fight, and fight, and fight to their last breath and still die unhappy.


I hope this long answer helps.  Blessings

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I see the differences between the two, but wouldn't it be normal to believe the one that came first? I mean, under who's authority did the first Anabaptists make these new beliefs they claim come from the Bible?  
It sounds very nice to say you need a personal relationship with Jesus (which I would claim I have, I develop it through prayer), but is it the full truth? Or something that was emphasized later on?

When I look back to the first reformer beliefs, they look more like a Catholic or Orthodox than modern evangelicals. It seems like the evangelicals have reformed from the reformers?

Answer
Blessings and thank you for your followup.

In John 3, Jesus emphasized the need to be born again.  Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’”  So for us, being born again and having that relationship with God is needed.  

Now, the Orthodox church is older but began with false doctrine and continues with false doctrine.  Just because it is older, doesn't make it better or more true.  

Anabaptists are an off shoot of the Protestant Reformation.  So in a way, yes they are reformers of the reformers.  But age doesn't necessarily make it wrong or right.  I don't believe that Baptists have everything right nor do I believe that ANY Christian denomination has everything right.  What I like about being Baptist is the taking away of the arbitrary nature of religion.  We have the Bible and only the Bible as our foundation for knowing what is of God and what is not of God.  Also, as Baptists we believe in the "priesthood of the believer."  You are a minister and priest before God along with every believer.  There should be no one who holds "special knowledge about God" that you don't have nor only select people who "know" some tradition.  We all are equal under Christ.

Ultimately, while I do not agree with the Orthodox church, they are still Christian.  If you feel God moving you in that direction, then by all means go and be blessed in going.