Expert: Dr. Ronald E. Shultz - 2/4/2008

Question
QUESTION: I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I am trying to get a Baptist or Evangelical preacher to answer this email.  I have been greatly disappointed in recent years at how I have seen Baptists and Evangelicals contort my faith and also try to tell me that I don't believe in the power of the atoning blood of Christ.  I am not writing to argue; I don't want an argument; I want love between all mankind.  I have a valid question about Baptist or Evangelical doctrine, and I have been unable to find an answer from anyone in the Baptist or Evangelical faith.

Although it is not true, many Baptists or Evangelicals mistakenly think that Latter-day Saints believe they can earn their way to heaven.  We believe we're saved by grace after all we can do.  In other words, we're saved by grace, but God expects us to keep his commandments (to repent) to claim the blessings of the shedding of Christ's blood--we must repent in order to be forgiven--i.e., we have to confess AND FORSAKE, not just confess.

I understand [perhaps I'm mistaken] that Baptists and Evangelicals believe that all that is necessary for salvation is to "proclaim Jesus" or "confess by the mouth" one's belief in Jesus, etc. and then salvation is assured.  Here, then, is my question, and I don't mean it to be argumentative.  I just really want an answer from a baptist or evangelical believer or preacher.

1.  Is this your belief (salvation by faith alone)?
2.  If so, does that mean a Baptist or Evangelical can confess Jesus to gain salvation, and then go out and rape, rob, murder, and fornicate to no end, for one's salvation is assured by the confession of Christ?  

I'm not looking for an answer that says, "well...one really wouldn't do that.  One would fill their lives with good works if they loved Christ [albeit "unnecessary" good works because of the belief in salvatino by faith alone].  I've had that answer before and it avoids the question.  

I was hoping for a "straight talk" answer--yes we as Baptists/Evangelicals believe you can confess and that sins don't matter after that (because Christ paid for our sins, so murder and rape will merit the same salvation as sacrifice and kindness...OR no we don't believe that, works actually matter a little when it comes to salvation.  And if you don't believe works have ANY role, then please explain how or why you believe in salvation by faith alone.

My question is poignant but sincere, and I hope you will answer it, for I really desire to better understand those brothers in Christ who have most twisted and MISunderstood me and my faith.  

What I LOVE about "Mormonism" is that it requires accountability for our actions.  It's about BECOMING like Christ, not merely professing a belief in Christ and then doing nothing (be doers, not hearers only).  That's hard work and many people just aren't that committed to the Savior Jesus Christ; it's easier just to "confess" and maintain one's "favorite sins" than go about the hard work of abandoning those sins.  Can you clearly state either the Baptist or Evangelical position so I can understand it?  And does the position vary from one Baptist or Evangelical church to another?

Sincerely,
Mark Cope
California
markmightywarrior@yahoo.com

ANSWER: Well, Sir, I have read your materials and quotes by your leaders so I don't think I have misunderstood your doctrine.  I also spent a few hours with two of your elders in a classroom going over your plan of salvation charts and various other doctrines.  As is your practice, one of the lads was a rookie so my main discussion was with the elder Elder.  By the grace of God, it did not go well with them as I testified to them that the Church of God of Latter Day Saints is not the true church of God.

"We believe we're saved by grace after all we can do."  Actually that little phrase "after all we can do" is a Christ plus works salvation not salvation by grace alone based on THE work of Christ. That phrase is a game of semantics.  I John 5:11-13 tells us we can know we are saved now, not afer all we can do.

1.  Is this your belief (salvation by faith alone)?

Yes, salvation is by faith and faith alone.  The number of passages that relate to this fact are far more than we can post here but I will give you a few.

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

There is nothing in that passage that states that "after all we can do" we are saved by grace.  

1 Cor 3:1-3
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
KJV

These are brethren and it is fairly obvious that are not living the best Christian lives.  Later, he says this to them.

1 Cor 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  KJV

Our works are judged for reward if we are born again not for salvation.  This example shows a personwho was saved but for whatever reason did not build properly upon that foundation so that none of his works were worth a reward so in essence "after all that he could do" he had nothing to show for his life except for that new birth.  He has zero works albeit he is saved.


Heb 10:12-14

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. KJV

See, you look at man's problem with God as being sins in the plural.  The problem with mankind has always been just one sin, unbelief.  Adam and Eve only committed one sin and lost Paradise and that sin came from their unbelief in what God said.  If through one act of unbelief Paradise was lost then it is not hard to accept that one act of faith/trust/belief regains it.  They are perfected forever not until they sin or if they backslide or whatever you might want to call a not so spiritual life.

Rom 5:13-21

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

The gist of this is that though no one else sinned in the way Adam ann Eve sinned, disbelief and disobedience of a command, still all men suffered death because of that sin.  They inherited or had imputed to them his disobedience and the sentence pronounced upon it.  For as Levi tithed in Abraham though he was still in the loins of Abraham so all men sinned while still in the loins of Adam.  

Now under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ we have the converse of that.  Jesus Christ, not the brother of satan, but the only begotten son of God is the only one who was absolutely obedient to the Father and this able to offer Himself up as the perfect sacrifice for sin(s).  Abel understood the concept of subsitutionary atonement and Cain did not.  Cain wanted to work his way into God's grace.  It didn't work then nor has it ever worked.

Through the disobedience of one all men died and will die until the last day of the Millennium but now through the obedience of one all who are saved by Him are saved forever.  

The passages could go on and on. Since you use the KJV as your first nail you should have no problem with these verses.


2.  If so, does that mean a Baptist or Evangelical can confess Jesus to gain salvation, and then go out and rape, rob, murder, and fornicate to no end, for one's salvation is assured by the confession of Christ?  

Not just a Baptist or Evangelical but all who would be born again by faith are capable of doing any sin in the book.  Many a believer has been guilty of many things over the years.  Will they lose reward? Yes.  May they leave this life much earlier than they could have?  Yes.  Will they go to Hell?  Not, if they were truly saved.  

God forgave David of the only two unpardonable sins in the OT.  There was no sacrifice for adultery or murder.  Both carried the death penalty.  Sin is sin. One sin lost Paradise and it was nowhere near on the scale, in man's eyes, as murder or rape.  God demands prefection.  Only Jesus Christ was perfect.  The blood of bulls and goats only covered, like sweeping under the rug, sins until the perfect sacrifice was made.  Now all sins are paid for and it is up to the individual to accept Christ as Savior to get his/her sins removed from their account to Christ's and to get Christ's obedience and righteousness placed in their account.

Now once the person is in the family, he falls under the house rules. He can be chastised for his sins and there is a sin unto death but no matter how or how much you punish a child they are still your child.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. KJV

Not only does that Scripture teach that we must be born again and that when we are we are born into the family of God, but is also speaks of adoption.  Using the historical-grammatical interpretaion of the above passage we can see eternal security.  

Under the law of the time you could disinherit a natural child.  If your son was a disobedient lout you could kick him out of the will in a heart.  You could never do that with an adopted child.  The law considered that in a genetic child you got the luck of the draw so you had the leeway of disinheriting him.  However, since you chose the adopted child it was your responsibilty not nature or the "gods" and you could not back out of it.

The omniscient God who is the Alpha and Omega is not caught by surprise.  As he told Jeremiah, He knows all of us before we were formed in our mother's womb.  On the day, you repent/metanoia/change your mind and trust Christ for salvation He knows every sin you will ever commit until your last breath.  Christ paid for all of them.  Confession is for fellowship not familai maintenance.

John 3:14-18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV

Eternal life is either eternal or it is not.  It is salvation or probation.  Not there is nothing about works in this passage.  In fact, it is beautiful that He prefaced verse 16 that we quote so often with 14 and 15.

The people who were saved from death from the serpent's bite by looking at the brazen serpent were saved by ONE look at something that made no sense scientifically or logically were saved because they trusted God.  Their works got them the snake bite and the death sentence but faith saved their lives.

Even as that brazen serpent was raised Jesus Christ was raised on a Cross and we who are dying spiritually by the serpent's bite are saved forever by that one act of faith in the work of Christ who was crucified, buried and rose again the third day according to the Scrptures.    

So, bottom line works have absolutely nothing to do with salvation and it never has.  

Rom 6:1-2
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?  KJV

We should not continue to live in sin but 1 John 1:9 is there if we sin for whatever reason.  Sometimes it is by ignorance, especially if we are new believers.  Sometimes it is due to discouragement and/or deception by the enemy. Sometime it is pure rebellion.  Whatever the cause, God deals with us as sons.  Some He cleans up their diaper and continues to toilet train them.  Some He deals with the root cause and when that is dealt with the confession and restoration comes about.  Some who will not listen here get called for a face-to-face with the Father and end up in that 1 Cor 3 scenario.  Yet, they are still sons and still in the family.

We do believe in personal responsibilty and there is accountabilty but again it is not about works for salvation.  

Your second question is really an old saw that Paul had to deal with continually in the epistles.  we will never be sinless until we reach glory but we shoud be seeking to sin less as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.  

Have some made false professions?  By all means, but no one tosses away a diamond just because there are cubic zirconiums running about.  You just make sure what you have is real and try to help other folks get the real diamond.  

As there are differences of opinions among Mormons you will find varying opinions among Baptists and other Evangelicals. Opinions don't count but the Word of God prevails and that doesn't include any of your additional books or the teachings of Smith and Young.  

Anyway, I can't be any more straight talking than I have been here. Again, I bear you that the Church of God of Latter Day Saints is not the true church of God.

May God grant you light and deliver you from the traditions of men.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Brother:

I noticed that in the spirit of Christian brotherhood I called you brother and you called me sir.  Your response is just what I was looking for.  I find it incredible and nearly blasphemous--a twisting of the word of God upside down such that I have almost never heard.  There is no point to me refuting you point by point--the spirit of contention is of the devil, who is not my brother, and who I hope is not yours.

But God bless you, BROTHER--we'll obviously not see eye to eye in this life, but I have enough of the spirit of Christ to truly say God bless you.

Thanks for the answer,
--Mark Cope

P.S.  The correct name of my church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  (There is no other name under heaven save that of Jesus Christ whereby men can be saved.)  All the best, --Mark

Answer
Yes, I realized I had mistyped the organization's name after I had hit the send key.  It had been a long day.

Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I have no desire to be contentious for the sake of contention but as the verse says I must contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints not to Joseph Smith in the 1800s.  

You misunderstood, as I did not say that the devil is your brother but your religion states that Jesus is the brother of satan.  

I cannot call you Brother for the whole premise of your religion is wrong, there were no Reformed Egyptian gold tablets nor an angel called Moroni.  Indeed, I am afraid that Smith had great disrespect for any that would follow him when he came up with that name.  Drop the i from Moroni and you have moron.  

I do not doubt your sincerity and I am sure you receive satsifaction from your religion. I know that there have been great efforts by your organization to be accepted by the Evangelical faiths and since many of them are becoming apostate you may one day gain that acceptance but never from true believers.

Twisting?  The quotes were fairly obvious passages.  No works, eternal salvation.  You would have to twist them to deny it.  

You are correct that continued debate would be waste of time.  Mormomism is a cult, always has been and always will be.  

The gates of Hell will not prevail against the true church, never did so while some denominations have become apostate God has always had a remnant even when Smith was alive so his "commission" is bogus.

I have read Smith and the BOM and they contradict each other but we are supposed to accept both as authoritative.  There is no evidence of any kind for any of the tribes he mentions.  It is a great fantasy.

No one can be saved after death and being baptized for the dead is a complete waste of time based upon a misinterpretation of the passage.  

We are not brothers and as long as you hold to those traditions we can never be but that does not mean I want you to go to Hell.  The true Jesus still holds out His hand to you and in that spirit so do I.  I suggest you find a Baptist in your area where you can sit down and go point by point.  

Again, may God grant you light to leave the darkness of the Mormon organization.