Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 5/9/2008

Question
QUESTION: Dear Reverend,

    Roman Catholics believe that the bread and wine during the mass literally turned into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ at the moment of consecration.  

    I have heard that Episcopalians and Greek Orthodox have the same belief. The Lutherans have a similar belief, but a bit more watered down. The Reformed churches are even more watered down, but the Baptists have it the most watered down, where it is nothing more than a symbol.

    Is this true? If it is just a symbol, then why is it so important that Paul writes in one of his epistles to the Corinthians that if someone partakes of the Eucharist in an unworthy manner that God might kill him? Why would a symbol be so important?

    I also heard that Baptists don't even call it a sacrament, while other Protestant groups do. Why is that? I have heard that by doing this the Baptists are saying that there is no real meaning to the celebration but that it is simply done because Jesus said so, and no other reason. I have heard that this makes the celebration no longer holy, but instead reduces it to no more than a toast to the fallen leader.

    Also Baptists don't even use wine, but grape juice, for the celebration. Why is that? In the Bible it clearly says wine.

    Can you help me understand?

Thank You!
~ Andrew

ANSWER: Hi Andrew,

Thanks for all these great questions.

I could write an entire book to try to answer these, but I will try to be brief but complete, please bear with me.


Communion is a symbol, it is for remeberance, acording to Jesus' very words.

1 Corinthians 11:23-27
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.  25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.  27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The whole thing is about remembering the price paid for our sin, not simply remembering the fact that Jesus died... a toast to a fallen leader.  Although the elements are symbolic, the act is still a very sacred act of worship.

We believe that they are symbolic for several reasons.

1.  The Old Testament clearly teaches against eating human flesh and drinking blood.

2.  Jesus' blood was shed ONCE, it does not continually flow.  That was the whole point of the cross.  It was a payment that only needed to be made ONCE.

Hebrews 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Hebrews 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

We believe that the ordinences are NOT sacriments.  A sacriment, by definition imparts grace to the observer.  We believe that the Bible teaches that the only way to get grace is through faith, not by ANY work, rite or ritual.

Romans 5:1-2


Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have ACCESS BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

THere were two kinds of wine in the Bible.  There was new wine, before it was fermented, and there was fermented wine, called strong drink.  We know that the Bible forbids strong drink and that Jesus stood against drunkenness.  We believe that the wine He used was new wine, unfermented.
Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? (8675) who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.  33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.  35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.  

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

I hope that this helps you a bit.  Thanks for these great questions.

In Christ
Pastor Don


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Reverend,

  Thanks for your help. I once had a Congregationalist tell me that when the sacraments impart grace it's not a magical thing, but the way they impart grace is simply the psychological effect they have on the believer. I know that you don't believe that baptism and communion impart grace, but I'm sure that you can aknowledge that they have an effect on the mind of the believer when they are celebrated, and so in that way they do impart grace, because they strengthen the faith of the believer.
    The man who told me this was a Congregationalist, but I liked that idea, so I cannot agree with you that the sacraments, or ordinances as you call them, do not impart grace. They were specific sacred and holy celebrations which the Lord told his believers to follow in His remembrance, and as declarations of faith in Him. And that one of the reasons He did this was so that the believers might be strengthen in their beliefs. Therefore their effect on the minds of the believer is grace in itself. Can you at least agree with that?
    I'm sure that when you were baptized if affected your thoughts. I'm sure that when you celebrate communion your mind is effected and your faith is strengthened, even in the fact that you recall to mind the price that was paid for our salvation. Isn't this psychological effect a type of grace?

Thank you.
~ Andrew

Answer
Hi Andy,

Please forgive my late response.

I absolutelu agree that these forms of worship affectthe mind in a positive way.  THe Bible tells us to do such thngs.

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

By saying that it imparts grace implies that it imparts something that enables you to merit heaven, when you consider what the Bible says Grace does for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The only way to access that grace is through faith, not any work, rite or ritual.
Romans 5:1-2


Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

If you want to call it psychological grace, and not saving grace, ok... I agree with the fact that these ordinances greatly affect the mind and spirit.

I hope that this helps.

In Christ,
Pastor Don