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Baptists - : If one is a reprobate and is conscious of this fact, what can or should one do next?

Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 10/30/2009

Question
QUESTION: My question is the following: If one is a reprobate and is conscious of this fact, what can or should one do next?
I’m a Christian all my life, I’m currently 25 and it doesn’t seem that I will leave this world for a while, though sometimes I would wish things would turn out otherwise.
I can say a lot of bad things about myself, but one thing is certain. I’m not a dumb man, I can easily see things from a logical and unbiased point of view if I make the effort to do so. I know the Bible well, it took some self-honesty and intellectual effort, but after a while it finally got through my self-centered skull that I actually am one of those “reprobates” we hear about so often, but rarely identify with.

While from an intellectual point of view I’m certain of God’s existence and the truth behind the Baptist faith, I have never directly experienced God’s presence. When I was younger I brushed this off as a sort of thing that only happens to older or exceptionally blessed people. That feeling the presence of God is something special, a rare gift. It took me a while to realize that this is not so, that the vast majority of good people I know actually experience this on a constant basis.
I don’t feel the presence of God. I never heard his voice. Each time I am praying, I realize that I’m talking to myself.

I fancy myself as a successful and capable man, but not particularly noble or just. Even my friends know they would lie if they called me a “good man”.

“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient” – never have I heard a better description of myself.

I have a natural tendency to abhor and despise a lot of what makes the core of a good Christian. I hate work, I would do everything I could to just earn money without doing anything (actually I come real close to that in real life). I despise the prospect of marriage. The very idea of being stuck with one and the same woman for the rest of my life seems like a real nightmare.

I hate turning the other cheek, more than anything else really. If someone proverbially hits me, I feel a very strong desire to hit him 20 times harder than he hit me and even that isn’t always enough. I always prefer to dish out a lot more damage in return than the damage I receive. It helps me keep people off my back, it keeps me in control. Whenever I find myself in a situation when I cannot for some reason return the proverbial blow, I feel great anger, disappointment, hate and frustration. Being unable to return the blow seems to me like the utmost unnatural, hideous situation. Turning the other cheek is the very antithesis of who I am. I could mention that I greatly enjoy casual sex, theft and duping other people, but that’s all common stuff I believe.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” – Yeah, that seems to describe me pretty well.

Every day when I wake up, I curse the moment God created me and the earth. If I could undo all creation, God knows I would do it. I can’t force myself to love a God who created a world in which predestination, pain, hate and suffering are possible. The very fact that an almighty God allowed this world to exist makes my blood boil. No, I cannot love him for that. It’s not a case of choice; it’s a case of fact.

I actually wish I was a soulless being like a cat or a dog. That after death I would just fade away and wouldn’t have to bother with all that “God, Satan and hell” fuss.
In spite of all this, I find the Baptist beliefs to be perfectly logical and coherent; it’s just that I can’t consider God to be a beneficial force here, at least not from my point of view. This in turn is again perfectly logical, assuming I’m a reprobate. After all, aren’t reprobates made to hate the Lord and creation? Aren’t reprobates made to like sin and enjoy it like I do? Isn’t it written:”Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”?
Some would probably say that I’m depressed, but I know that it’s not true. I’m actually quite content with what I have here on earth.

“Examine yourselves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

I think I had a lot of time to examine myself and come to the inevitable conclusion that God had not rejected me. It makes sense, since if everyone was an elect then what would be Hell and Satan useful for? God doesn’t create useless things, hell is not meant to be empty, it is logical that someone has to end up there.

The question remains – what is there left to be done if it is you who will end up there? There is little said about the “way of the reprobate” so to speak. There is some absurd and hurrah-optimistic assumption that all churchgoing Baptists are “doomed” to be the elect, while none of them could possible turn out to be a reprobate.

This I find utterly stupid. I’m as certain that I’m a reprobate as any sane, intelligent and normal man could ever be. I know myself well, I am unable to change my ways. I’m perfectly unable (and unwilling I should add) to love God. However I naturally don’t feel like paying Hell a visit, though this is only because I want to avoid suffering like every rational man, reprobate or elect, would. If hell was a place full of pleasure, or at least “neutral” like earth is, I wouldn’t really have a problem with going there. Praying to God for forgiveness would be hypocritical here, he neither seems to want to hear me, nor do I want to speak to him either.

I don’t want to meet Mr. God; I just don’t want to meet Mr. Satan.

So, what else is there to do?

ANSWER: Hi Jan,

Thank you for this very powerful and interesting question. I am very sorry for my late response. I believe that oddly enough, you are very close to understanding all the truth that can set you free. I want to give you a few Biblical principles to consider:

1. God elects based on His foreknowledge. He knows who will freely choose to believe... but He does not elect some to damnation and others to salvation.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

2. God does not want anyone to go to Hell. Hell is not meant for humans it is meant for the Devil and his angels.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

3. We all start out as reprobates... there is no one that is righteous on his own... that is why we need deliverance.

Romans 3:10-19
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

4. It is the fact that we are sinners and cannot come to GOd by keeping the law that Jesus needed to die and pay the price for sin in our place.

Romans 3:20-25
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

5. None of us on our own can do right... the only thing we can do is realize that we are hopless sinners and trust what Jesus did on the cross to save us. If we ask Him to He will.

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

6. If we believe what Jesus did for us and ask Him to save us, we get much more than forgiveness... be have our sin replaced with the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

You are absolutely right to see yourself as a reprobate under the condemnation of God. We all start out like that.... sadly many never realize their sinful state so they do not turn to Jesus for help.

If you are willing to realize that your works will never get you to heaven and trust in what Jesus did on the cross, and ask Him to save you He will! No you don't deserve it... that is the whole point. If we could earn or deserve salvation, then Jesus died for nothing.

Galatians 2:21
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

I hope that this helps you. I am so sorry for my late response.

In Christ
Pastor Don

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks for the kind reply.

You wrote among others: "Hell is not meant for humans it is meant for the Devil and his angels."

I hope you won't take this as a personal attack, but have trouble believing this, as the Bible says otherwise in many passages. Doesn't for instance Revelation 21:8 make it clear that hell is a place where the wicked go?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The fallen Angels can't even be "idolaters" or "unbelieving". The Angels don't need to believe in God, because they KNOW God, thus Rev 21:8 can't refer to Angels, it definitely refers to the souls of wicked humans.

Then we have Luke 16:22-25, where the Bible explicitly mentions the rich man who is tormented in hell:
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Surely the rich man from these passages was not a Devil and yet its explicitly mentioned that he is in Hell. No, I cannot agree with you that "Hell is not meant for humans it is meant for the Devil and his angels", the Bible is all to clear stating otherwise.

If we assume that Hell is not for humans, then we must therefore assume that every single person that ever lived and ever will live will be saved. Universal salvation for every human no matter what?
Can one do evil, hate God, not care about the principles set in the bible and get "automatically" saved after death? Are blasphemers and idolaters who cursed God with their last breath "automatically" sent to heaven with everyone else?
If that would be so, then there would be no distinction between the two thiefs that died on the cross alongside Jesus.
If this is so, then what's the point of the 10 commandments? What is the point of so many passages of the Bible through which God tells us that its faith that brings salvation?

This is I think the dilemma I face - I realize that God exists, I have no doubts about that. I have faith, I have a whole lot of faith. Its almost not faith anymore, its bordering on certainty.
I fear and respect God, yet it is the type of fear and respect that a Jew in a concentration camp feels for an SS-mann.
Yes, I fear God and I know I'm at his mercy, but that very knowledge makes me unable of loving Him. I can't love Him, precisely because He is responsible for putting me here and creating the world and making me who I am.

I won't love someone who first sets me aflame and then says that he might put out the fire if I will be nice to him. And that is precisely what God did to me when he created me and the world.

Answer
Hi Jan,

Thank you for asking a follow up question to allow me to clarify my answer. The Bible says that God created and prepared Hell for the Devil and His angels, but not that only the devil and his angels will go there. Yes, men will go to hell! The scriptures you cited are proof of that fact. The point I was making is that no man NEEDS to go to Hell because Jesus paid the price for sin on the cross. If you trust in that payment, you can be saved, but if you do not, then you remain in a condemned state.

John 3:16-20
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

I hope that helps you.

In Christ
Pastor Don

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