Expert: John of AllFaith - 5/7/2009

Question
QUESTION: dear sir,

good day,

im a student of comparitive religions. here i have questions for you.

(Prayer according to the enclyclopedia is the act of communicating with a deity in worship)

IN Matthew 6:5-15 (New International Version) where jesus is teaching prayer

Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
  " 'Our Father in heaven,  (jesus did not say pray to me)
  hallowed be your name,  
10your kingdom come,
  your will be done
     on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
     as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
  but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.  (read twice if you want)

Check the below reference

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

the above two references contradicts with the idea that paul tells us that salvation is achieved by believing that jesus died for the SINs of humanity.

As he tought us moreover he said

"obey the commandments."

so we go back and take a cross reference to EXODUS 20:12-17


12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


no where in the whole of jesus teachings i found him saying that .... he' would die for the sins of humanity.


kindly do let me know your suggestions



ANSWER: Hi Muhammad,

I accept the definition of prayer you offer.

Many people, including many Christians, do not understand the Christian religion and its doctrines. I will be happy to explain.

I do not accept the New International Version (NIV) as holy scripture. It is a fraud meant to destroy faith in God. Here is this section in the real Bible (the Authorized King James):

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus was teaching his fellow Jews here. Jews are under the Law of Moses. Had the Jews accepted him as Messiah things would have gone much differently.

What must be understood is that Christianity and the Christian doctrine of salvation is not based on the Laws of Moses (the Torah).

This is confirmed by Paul here:

Galatians 3  
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Note verse 13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

In other words, Jesus' sacrificial death "redeemed us from the curse of the law."

To find the teachings of Christianity one must look to Paul and others. Jesus was teaching Jews under the Law.

This section, especially verses 13 and 14 specifically state that God empowered Jesus to provide salvation to all those who accept his sacrifice apart from the deed of the law.

This is even more clearly explained here:

Ephesians 2  
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Again (vs 8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

How? (vs 14) "For he [Jesus] is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [ie the Law] between us;"

The Jews on the other hand are under the Law. They are commanded to obey the Law (the 613 Commandments as enumerated by Maimonides) BUT even then, as Paul explains above, it GOD Who justifies. And this is taught in the Tanack as well:

Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Ultimately, "salvation" is the GIFT of GOD not of works lest one might boast.

One can not therefore say, "I honor my parents," "I don't drink," "I don't steal" etc. etc. and am thereby accepted by God. No,

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

According to such texts salvation is by GOD'S MERCY alone through Jesus as the "propitiation" for sin because NO ONE deserves it.

What is this "propitiation through faith in his blood"? There is a slight amount of debate here but what is certain is that "his blood" references his death and burial by which we are forgiven as described above. Faith in this sacrifice is our propitiation or means to forgiveness.

This is confirmed again here:

I Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Why is "your faith also vain"?

Because salvation is dependent on Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

This is a solid biblical doctrine: Jesus sacrificed his life as the propitiation or payment/atonement for sin.

Hope this clarifies things.

~ John of AllFaith

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: kindly thankyou for a detailed reply,


now ther are minute similarities but many many and numerous differences between the teachings of jesus (PBUH)and st. paul's.Below is only one example.


As against the teaching of the Master (Jesus) that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments (Mathew 19:16-17), Paul nails the law and the commandments to the cross

Matthew 19:16-17 (New King James Version)
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
  16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[b] No one is good but One, that is, God.[c] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Colossians 2:14 (New King James Version)
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross

Jesus (peace be upon him) was not crucified or put ot death according the the below verse

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (New King James Version)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

note: paul comments on resurected bodies, as after death they are spiritualised.

Luke 20:35-36 (New King James Version)
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

note: according to jesus the resurrected bodies are like angels i.e (spiritual) not physically.

John 20:17-18(New American Standard Bible)
17Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to (S)My brethren and say to them, 'I (T)ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
NOTE:- jesus said My Father and your Father, and my GOD and your GOD(the same god moses talk about in exodus)
18(U)Mary Magdalene came, (V)announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her.

John 20:26-27(New American Standard Bible)
 26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "(C)Peace be with you." means "shalom aliekum" in hebrew.
27Then He said to Thomas, "(D)Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

note:- if jesus was alive physically then this would contradict with he's teachings as mentioned in the above verse that ressurected bodies are spiritual i.e like angels. but he's teaching did not contradict as he was not a spirit.

As you Mentioned that Christianity and the Christian doctrine of salvation is not based on the Laws of Moses (the Torah).

kindly note Law is something that was given to moses and jesus was following the same he did not come to abolish it.
LAW:-

In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” these words of Jesus are recorded:

“ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mt. 5:17-19).


Mathew (KJV) Ch:22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus told us the limitations of the LAW him SELF is this not enough??

PAUL:
According an encyclopedia PAUL was a Hellenistic Jew,who called himself an apostle.

According to the Acts of the Apostles, his conversion (or metanoia) took place on the road to Damascus, where he experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus after which he was temporarily blinded. Unlike Jesus' apostles in Jerusalem, Paul had not known Jesus in person. Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from man, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ, Paul claimed almost total independence from the "mother church" in Jerusalem.[11]

Thirteen epistles in the New Testament are attributed to Paul. Scholarly consensus is virtually united in agreement that seven of these are genuinely by Paul (their is a doubt about he's vision). Opinions differ about the remaining six, with some regarding all to be by other hands, some taking all to be genuine, and most scholars accepting some but not others.
 
Paul is someone who's claiming to have received his own gospel, whoes teaching are in doubt. hence we do prefer jesus over paul's teaching and the authenticity in general matter for all the refrences. yet i have a copy of 1971 bible of King James version revised by 32 scholars of high eminence backed by 50 co-operating denominations i would like to send you a copy of that if you can let me know you e-mail. As it mentioned that it have GRAVE DEFECTS. how can the word of GOD have GRAVE DEFECTS? OR CONTRADICT TO IT SELF... im sorry if you mind anything .



Kindly As mentioend eariler Whosoever therefore shall break one of these "least" commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven



what do you think is have paul not changed the laws and commandments?

regards
Muhammad  

Answer
Hi Muhammad,

You: now ther are minute similarities but many many and numerous differences between the teachings of jesus (PBUH)and st. paul's.Below is only one example.

JoA: Agreed, but the similarities are much more than "minute." There are several differences between the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul and other New Testament writers. However as I explained before, Christianity is not based on Jesus' teachings but on the letters to the Churches and developed Church tradition (especially the Nicean Creed). Master Y'shua (Jesus) was teaching Jews who lived under the Laws of Moses during the first century CE. Gentiles (Christian or not) are not under these laws and never were. The Torah's laws (other than the Seven Universal Laws given through Noah) are applicable to Jews only.

Master Y'shua was sent by God to the Jews only, not to the Gentiles.
This is confirmed here:

Matt 15:23 But he [Master Y'shua -- Jesus] answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Master only taught Jews: the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

After the majority of Jews rejected his teachings (largely because he rejected their Oral Torah and refused to lead an army against Rome: Moshiach/Messiah is to be a King not a peaceful preacher according to the Hebrew Prophets), after Jerusalem fell to the Romans in 70 CE (Moshiach is supposed to establish Jerusalem and Israel, not oversee its destruction according to the Hebrew Prophets), then the Jewish followers of Master Y'shua (after Y'shua granted instruction to Paul on the rooftop -- Acts chapter 9) began actively teaching and recruiting the Gentiles and eventually what we call Christianity became a mainly Gentile religion (Y'shua's followers called it simply "the Way" and viewed it as a Jewish sect prior to this). The Book of Acts describes how this Jewish sect developed into Christianity during its early phases.

Christianity therefore is understandably different from Judaism and from Master Y'shua's teachings to Jews.

This is similar (but not exactly comparable) to how Sunni Islam is based on not only al Qur'an but also al Hadith. Al Qur'an is, in this example, "The direct Word of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala" and yet the vast majority of Muslims also accept the teachings of al Hadith. In the same way, Christians accept the Hebrew Scripture used by Master Y'shua and his Jewish followers (Torah and Tanack) but understand them through the lens of the New Testament and established Church tradition believing that Jesus "fulfilled the Law of Moses."  

The Hadith, may I say with all due respect to the deen and ummah, go beyond the teachings of al Qur'an. If Islam united its sects and only embraced al Qur'an and rejected all the corollary writings and traditions it would be a very different religion.

The same is true with Christianity. BUT reality is that both religions have long and well established teachings, sources of religious authority and traditions that are fundamental and that must be acknowledged. In Christianity this includes the Nicean Creed which lays out the essential Christian faith in a few words:

The Nicean Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

This creed, along with the Apostles Creed etc. was written well after the time of Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles and yet are accepted as the essential dogmas of the traditional Christian religion.

Do the teachings of Master Y'shua support or disagree with certain of the teachings encoded in the Creed? Its a matter of belief, understanding and faith.

We could discuss the impact of Constantine, the rise of Catholicism and the Vatican, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Protestantism and so on in the Christian religion, but the simple fact is, religions like people always develop and change with the passage of time. Without change they would stagnate and die, with too much change they are fundamentally altered into something different (Master Y'shua warned this would happen to the Church and blamed it on "the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes"). Where the proper balance is can always be debated. God is alive and life is fluid.

Christianity is what it is.
Islam is what it is.

And God is... More... always More.

"Allahu Akbar" does not remind us that "God is great" but that God is greater than the greatest and greater still...

When you come right down to it Paul was correct:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are ALL completely and utterly dependent on the Grace of the One God however conceived and however conceived we are only partially correct because God is Always More.

Hope this helps,

John of AllFaith