Expert: Rev. Stuart Woodward - 9/2/2009

Question
QUESTION: I have been to many site and talked to many 'ministers of truth' on the subject of salvation and water baptism. I know that since you carry the label of baptist you do not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I know that you believe this to sustain your believe that we are saved by faith alone. I would like to know how you can personally deny what the scriptures plainly teach on the subject of baptism and salvation by faith alone?

Questions on works

1. Is baptism a work?
2. Is baptism a work of the Law of Moses refered to in Romans 4? If not and the context of Romans 4 is describing salvation apart of works of the LAW of Moses how exactly does this passage exclude water baptism?

3.Were in Ro 4 and Eph 2:8-10 is the exclusion of New Testament commands mensioned to recieve ones salvation in this passage?

4. Do you know the difference in definition between working and earning wages and what it means to freely recieve something? Could this explain why so many passages tell us that we cannot earn salvation by what we do, but we must do something to recieve our salvation? If not then explain to me how the Theif on the cross was saved (By FAITH YES BUT BEFORE OR AFTER HE CALLED OUT TO JESUS?). What about the Harlot (she to was saved by faith. But before or after she washed the feet of Jesus?). What about the Publican (He also was saved by faith. When was he saved? The moment he believed? Or was it the moment he beat his Chest and call on God to have mercy? Last but not least. What about the paralytic? When was he saved? After he made the Journey to see Jesus. There are several points I want you to see.

a. None of these examples ever refer to water baptism, however none of these passage ever mension faith either. Have a good look. If you contend that baptism is not necessary on the premise that it is not mensioned every time salvation is being preached you must be consistant. Are these NOT example of people being saved, used by faith alone teachers to support their doctrine? Why do they not mension Faith or teach that it is that alone that saves?

b. Do you agree that each example I have provided clearly shows that mercy was given at the point of their outward expression of faith?

5. Water baptism was not instituted until Mark 16:16 when Jesus instituted it after his ressurection. Therefore water baptism did not apply to the cases above since the New Covenant was not in effect untill his death (HEB 9:16&17).

6. Acts 2:38 Records the how of Acts 2:21 and is futher verified by 22:16. However we have a pattern laid out in Acts 2:38 based on what the context of the Chapter is about. The pattern is cleary one of instruction on who Christ is, how he effects salvation to our lives and what we must in obediance to have him impute this to us. Do you accept what I have said? If not lets take each verse captive until we do agree on what it says with out adding to it?

7. James 2:20-24. Does this passage or does it not actually mension 'saving faith'? If so where? In fact where in this entire chapter do we gain a full understanding with out the assitance of John Calvin, Charles Surgeon, or other that we are saved through a 'saving faith'?

If this is not mensioned or taught through out this entire chapter then it is an added doctrine and had an origion out side the word of God in the mind of a man, and must be rejected as false teaching. If you believe that this is the true teaching of this passage perhaps you can explain to me how and why the one who founded the doctrine was forced to reject James as a result of this Chapter.

Martin Luther saw a conflict between Paul and James and made a Choice. If James 2:14-26 actually taught that we are saved by a kind of faith that is alone, Martin would have never rejected James. As it turns out he did and we all know why.

The real question is what does James 2:20-24 Teach?

1. We are saved when our faith is made complete by what we do?
2. Salvation is NOT by faith alone but is done at the point of works. What works? Obediance to the instruction of God on what we are to do to be saved. Does this mean earning salvation NO. It means that we are doing what is required to recieve the work Christ did on the cross. We are called to express our faith in water baptism to be saved.

In Christ
Shane




ANSWER: Hello Shane,
Clearly this subject matters a great deal to you, so much so that you are not so much asking me a question but seeking to give me the answer. In other words I get the impression that whatever I wrote here would make little difference to what you believe.
It is not possible in the space of an answer of this kind to give a full answer to each of the examples you outline and I am not going to try. However, you seem to be of the view that all who carry the label 'baptist' think identically. This is not a wise assumption. I believe that the baptist position you outline and your own position are not the best way of understanding scripture. I do not believe in salvation by faith alone. I believe in salvation by grace alone (that is it is a gift of God) normally appropriated by faith which ought to include being baptised as a believer by immersion.
Have I therefore the confidence to say that anyone who has not been baptised in such a way cannot be saved? No. Salvation is God's gift and I leave those issues to Him. My task is to fulfil the commission He has given me which includes baptising people and telling them to be baptised.
Does all this make me and unusual Baptist? Not as unusual as you might think as Baptists ought to be opposed to legalism in all its forms when it comes to making exclusive assertions about procedures but at the same time be committed to preaching and teaching all that Jesus has commanded.
I realise that does not answer all your questions but they have been asked on a misunderstanding of my position, therefore I cannot answer them in the context you have raised them.
I hope all this is of some help and I pray that God will bless you as you continue rightly to take His Word seriously.
Stuart Woodward.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Stuart,

I appologize if my first email was over hard hitting, its just that I get
alot of opposition to what I believe on this subject and baptists seem to like to spin everything I say. No offence to you. I do appreciate you responce and do not intend on a war. I however do expect that what is believed on for salvation must line up with the plain language of what is being taught in scripture. When one has to view certian passages from a faith alone perspective before they allow the passage to speak they are not looking for truth but rather jusification.


You suprise me with your responce in that I was not expecting you to say that we are not saved by faith alone. Every baptist I have talked to is not only a faith alone advocate but seems to be a Calvinist as well. I agree with you that Grace Alone saves us not faith alone. We are saved by Gods favor manifested in the form of the sacrafice of Jesus Christ. I do agree that no one has cornered the mark who God saves, you are correct that is up to God, baptism or not. The only point I was making in all of what I had to say you that we must accept the teaching of the scripture over the teaching of men when it comes to water baptism and all matters.

I am curious however as to what you tell new believers on how they are to recieve Jesus Christ. How you harmonize James 2 with Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. What your definition of 'works', etc.

In Christ
Shane

Answer
Hello Shane,
Good to hear from you again. I appreciate your comments and for the most part thoroughly agree with them. The problem with interpreting scripture is that we are not always in the know about the precise situations that people were facing when they were writing. To say that faith without works is dead is to state the obvious. If my claimed faith makes no difference to how I live my life, it is an illusion at best or a lie at worst. However, simply to do the things that others expect from some one with faith is not faith. I can feed the hungry and even make great sacrifices but those things will not save me. Grace saves me and I appropriate that through faith but if there is no lifestyle change then there has been no spiritual rebirth and my faith is not faith at all but simple abstract cold belief.
I can stand on a sea shore and say that I believe a boat on the sea won't sink. The belief is genuine but it is not faith. Faith comes when I stand in the boat and say 'this boat won't sink'. As I understand it Christian faith is about the Lordship of Jesus Christ and if I claim Him as Lord people are entitled to expect change. But the evident change in itself is not the same as faith.
Paul was certainly reacting to the legalistic framework of his early experiences and the concern he had that people would make Christianity just another law based religion. I expect James was simply stating the obvious from a logical perspective.
My concern, however, is this. If my salvation depends on works in any real sense, how many works do I have to do? How do I know I have jumped through enough hoops?
When I was a young school teacher (I live in England by the way) I was doing a religious education class on the story of Peter walking on the water. I ran out of material and so ad libbed a bit and asked, 'Why didn't Jesus let Peter drown?' Various answers came but one 12 year old boy said, 'If Peter had drowned it would have been Jesus' fault'. I asked him to explain and he said that Jesus did not tell Peter to get out of the boat as long as he had enough faith to make it all the way. He simply said come. On that basis the boy reckoned that once Peter got out of the boat he was Jesus responsibility. In the story there is grace in the call and ultimate rescue of Peter. There is faith in action as Peter responds in obedience but there is also failure, yet at no stage was Peter actually in any state other than total security once he responded as he had entrusted himself to Jesus.
This story and that 12 year old boy freed me from a life of always feeling I might not be doing enough or might not have enough faith. Interestingly it is since then that I have been more available and obedient to the Lord.
If a work is the outworking of faith then it is part of the faith. If a 'work' is something I have to do in order to earn my salvation then it may be praiseworthy but if I rely on it in the wrong way it will prevent me from knowing grace.
Discerning the genuine from the false is not easy which is probably why Jesus spoke about letting wheat and tares grow together until the last day.
I hope all these ramblings make some kind of sense. I have spent my life trying hard not to be trapped by a label. I am a bible believing Christian, brought up in the Salvation Army, meeting a Baptist wife at Bible School and ending up in the Baptist Ministry because, in this country at least, it gives me the freedom to preach what I believe whilst still involving a measure of accountability.
May God continue to bless and lead you.
Stuart Woodward