Expert: Rev. Robert Woods - 4/19/2010

Question
QUESTION: Dear Sir,

I came across your profile on AllExperts while searching for a "post-trib forum" - I was looking for a message board forum on which I could discuss questions with other believers holding to a post-trib viewpoint (do you know of one, by the way?). Having read a previous answer of yours stating that you believe in a post-tribulational Rapture, I wondered whether you might have time to give some assistance with a few questions I'm thinking over.

I am a little puzzled about how to reconcile the details of the parables of Matthew 13 - the wheat and tares, and the dragnet - with post-trib. Specifically, I am wondering about the apparent order in which Jesus says things will be done. Verse 49-50: "... The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here we have the just remaining behind, and the wicked being taken away, whereas the rapture is considered the separation of the just from among the wicked. For example, in Matthew 24:31 it is the elect who are gathered together. I understand that Jesus is probably not pressing the details of the parables, but it still bothers me that the Scripture is so explicit about the angels removing that which offends (unbelievers) rather than removing the righteous. (see http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Book/First.htm for an example of how this point is used against post-trib)

I had another thought... are these two parables even talking about the rapture? The "furnace of fire" seems to correspond with the "everlasting punishment" of Matthew 25, whereas the angels as the gatherers/ones who do the separating would correspond with Matthew 24:31, at the Second Coming (i.e. the rapture, except the group that is gathered first is different). Similarly, in what way is the destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "everlasting" if the final resurrection and judgement of the wicked is after the Millennium?

Secondly, in response to the post-trib argument that some unbelievers will enter the Millennium (in regard to the "repopulation problem"), it has been put to me that "the nations" spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-17, Ezekiel 36:28-29, 36, and Isaiah 14:1-2 do not have to consist of unbelievers at this point - in the pre-trib scheme, they are mortal, believing survivors of the Tribulation. Amos 9:12, for example, speaks of Israel possessing "the Gentiles who are called by My name" - i.e. believers. So is there anything in the language that would indicate that the Scriptures definitely speak of unbelievers entering the Millennium in the aforementioned passages?

Following on from this, it would seem that there must be a significant number of mortal adults who enter the Millennium if the judgement of the nations in Matthew 25 is to take place as portrayed in the Scriptures. Children and babies cannot be the only ones who survive the Tribulation, as Christ would not say such things of them (i.e. that they fed Him, clothed Him, etc). The sheep appear to definitely be believers, as they are called "the righteous". The thing is, from what Jesus says of them - i.e. their actions in protecting/caring for His brethren - it would appear that they must have been believers for a while during the Tribulation. However, in the post-trib view, all the adult believers at the time of the Second Coming are raptured and thus glorified before this judgement takes place.

Seeing as the remaining unbelieving Jews are saved after the Rapture, I see no reason why some surviving Gentiles can't put their faith in Jesus and be saved at the same time, too. Joel 2:32 says, in the context of the Day of the Lord, that “... whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved....” However, it is difficult to think that these “last-minute” Gentile believers are those who did the things Christ commends in Matthew 25, as they were saved so late.

What are your thoughts on how to resolve these apparent difficulties?

I have also recently taken another look at the Gog + allies battle in Ezekiel 39-39, with a view to locating its timing in the End-time scenario of events. I would be interested in your view on this, in light of the following.

Placing this battle at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation period would account for Israel's burying the dead for seven months and burning the weaponry for seven years (39v9, 12). However, this does not fit with the following verses clearly showing Israel's spiritual renewal and the exaltation of God among the nations at the end of this battle:

39:7: "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."
39:21-22: "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day forward."
39:29: "And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”"

These are very specific statements that cannot come to pass before the second coming of Christ.

In contrast, there are a number of significant similarities between this battle and the battle of Armageddon:

1) The call to the birds of the air (Revelation 19:17-18 and Ezekiel 39:17-20)
2) A great earthquake, with hail (Rev 16:18-21 and Eze 38:19-22)
3) The remnant of Israel being saved (Zechariah 12:10 and Eze 39:29)

However, it is difficult to imagine that the following could be said of Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation:

Ezekiel 38:11-12: "You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

Again, I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on these matters.

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you.

In Him, Dominic

All Scripture quotations from the New King James Version (NKJV), copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

ANSWER: Blessings and thank you for your questions:

Wheat and the Tares  and the Dragnet – both parables speak of the “end of the age”  that is the very end after the thousand year reign of Christ where the unbelievers will be judged.  So I don’t see them in conflict with a Post-tribulation position at all.   Both believers and unbelievers will be on the earth at that time, the second coming would have already occurred.  However, all the parables are earthly stories with heavenly meanings.  Just as a preacher tells a story today to illustrate a point, Jesus used parables to illustrate a heavenly point.   Both of these parables point to the heavenly meaning of judgment of the unbelieving, not everything in a parable is supposed to be used as theological ammunition for one view or another.  This does not make the parable any less scripture or God’s word.
Millennium – no I don’t think that unbelievers will enter the millennium.  However, we are talking about a long period of time where those who have died before us and those of us caught up in the air with Him will be reigning with Him on the earth.   The question I have is will there be any children? Or will children be born to those who where remaining who did not die? Or what happens to the children still in the womb when the second coming occurs?   We know that at the end of the Millennium, there are those who rebel against Christ, follow Satan and battle God one last time before they are forever defeated.  Where do those people come from?
Last Minute Believers – I think it is possible for people to accept Christ at the last minute.  As long as they do not carry the mark of the beast, it is possible.
Ezekiel’s battles – I just read those passages yesterday in my own quiet time.  I have gone back and researched that there are three main views as to when this takes place:  1.  Some believe that it has already taken place (I don’t buy this argument at all, you get a wide variety of times when this could have happened), 2.  Some say that this is the battle before the tribulation starts forcing the nations of the world to sign the 7 year peace treaty with Israel.   If so, God intervenes in some way causing massive casualties among Israel’s enemies, while the world sees it as a “superweapon,” God’s people see it as a sovereign move of God.  3.  Some say that this is the same battle that John sees in Revelation 14:14-20; or Rev. 19:17-21, or Rev. 20:7-10.  
I think that Ezekiel’s vision could be #2 or #3.   You can make great arguments either way.

Great questions.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Sir,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I would like to make a few follow-up comments/questions, if I may.

Firstly, I must disagree with you that the Wheat & Tares and Dragnet parables refer to after the Millennium. The phrase "end of the age", according to Matthew 24:3 and following, clearly refers to the end of this present age, i.e. before the Millennium. Jesus, in answering His disciples' question about the end of the age, refers to persecution, tribulation, and lawlessness right up to the end. He cannot thus be referring to the Millennium.

Who populates the Millennium is the very question for which I was seeking your thoughts. Those who hold to a pre-tribulation Rapture argue that the post-trib view cannot account for those who will ultimately rebel at the end of the Millennium, as post-trib has all believers raptured and glorified just prior to the Millennium and thus unable to pro-create. One post-trib response is to point out passages such as Zechariah 14:16-17, in which "everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem" survives on into the Millennium. My question was whether these people "of all the nations" are unreservedly spoken of as unbelievers. The Hebrew is "goyim", often translated "heathen" in the KJV (such as in Ezekiel 36:36, another passage clearly referring to the beginning of the Millennium), but I know that "goyim" can merely refer to nations or Gentiles, rather than specifically *unbelieving* nations/Gentiles.

I agree that children will probably make up a significant proportion of those who enter the Millennium in mortal bodies, go on to pro-create, and from whom come the generations who ultimately rebel at the end of the Millennium. My question is whether there will be any adults, and if so where do *they* come from. One answer is the passages I referred to earlier, talking about the remnant of the nations that survive Armageddon.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts, and your time.

In Him, Dominic

Answer
Blessings and thank you for your question.

I believe there may be "remnants" of every nation who refused the mark of the beast, refused to battle against God and Israel, yet were not "saved."  Everyone who takes the mark during the tribulation will be condemned and will not live during the Millennium.  There are many people in this world that just hate authority and will fight against it.  So when the anti-christ forces people to take the mark, many will not just "because" they hate authority.  So I believe, even during the Millennium, there will be some who will rebel against Christ, even though he is just and holy, because they hate authority.

Remember, the Bible doesn't tell us everything or all the details we would like.  But prophesy usually doesn't, it is only a glimpse to show us that God is in control of all things.