Expert: Dr. Ronald E. Shultz - 8/25/2010

Question
dear Dr. Schultz,  

i am catholic.   i have lived up to my religious beliefs...not because of
rules, but because i want to please God.   i believe fornication to be
immoral;   therefore i am a virgin,  in every sense of the word...no oral
sex, no genital sex, no anal sex and no disrobing, no touching erogenous
zones, and no mutual masturbation.

this has not been easy...especially after kissing a woman for a couple of
hours.   my body works the way it should.   biology pushes me towards
more than kissing;  but i have not faltered because i want to please God.   

catholic priests do not marry;  otherwise,  i would have had to seriously
consider becoming a priest.   i like holding a woman in my arms and
kissing her!  many, many woman have offered their bodies to me.

a southern baptist woman i dated believed in premarital sex and told me
that she had 5 "committed" relationships before dating me.  committed
meant to her that she lived with them for about 6 months each.   she
called it "serial monogamy."  

she attended southern baptist services weekly and sang on the choir and
attended a weekly bible study group.

she said that she was glad that she was never promiscuous.  but i think
that it was fornication in the superlative degree.   all of my fornicating
friends and girl friends have told me that when they first "hook-up", they
have wild and crazy sex.

she constantly encouraged and pleaded with me to have oral and genital
sex with her,  but she never issued an ultimatum or made it a condition
of our dating.     although she said she would change for me,  i do not
think that people change for someone else.  i believe that they change for
themselves.    

she was very much in love with me and i was very much in love with her.   
we dated for about a year and a half;   but,  i could not convince her that
premarital serious sex is a sin.  

i did not want her to teach our children [if we married],  that premarital
sex was acceptable.  

and whenever i would bring up the subject,  she did not want to discuss
it.  i told her that i believe that a man and woman must work out their
differences, before marriage, or those differences will harm the marriage,
but to no avail.  

we were compatible in every way, except for these 2 items:
1.   pre marital sex
2.   discussing and possibly working out our different beliefs on pre
marital sex

eventually, i broke her heart and mine,  and stopped dating her.   she told
me i was throwing away my life.               

i may well be the dumbest man on the face of the earth,  but i am not
asking you to comment on that.

not only were we in love with each other;  we also felt love for each other.   
she kept in touch for awhile,   but a couple of years later, i heard that she
married;  we had no contact.   

i did meet her accidentally,   about 10 years later at an entertainment
event;   we visited for 5 minutes and she told me that her marriage was
very unhappy;    she invited me to keep in touch with her but i told her
that it would be wrong for me to interfere with her marriage.  so we
parted.   i will not do anything to harm a marriage.   that accidental
meeting was almost 9 years ago.  we have had no contact with each other
since then.  i am not asking you to comment on that.

finally,  i get to my questions:

1.   neither of us ever asked the other to change religions;   therefore, i
did not see this as a problem because of religion.   but,  am i wrong?

2.   did i break her heart and mine because of fundamental theology
differences?

3.   she said that oral sex is not mentioned in the Bible and because the
Bible is silent about oral sex,  premarital oral sex not prohibited.  do
southern baptists really believe that?

4.   is that the logic president clinton, a southern baptist,   used to cheat
with monica orally?

5.   she also said that because she was saved by choosing Jesus and to be
born again in baptism when she was 16,  that she was saved forever and
that she could fornicate as much as she wanted to and still go to heaven
when she dies.   do southern baptists really believe that?

5.   re:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...

does once saved always saved supersede:
“the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
neither fornicators,”

doesn’t this mean that fornicators shall not inherit heaven?

as this is ancient history in my life,   there is no urgency for you to
answer, Dr. Schultz.   

thank you!

Answer
First,let me applaud you for your purity. In a day when many couples have some form of sex after the third date or with several partners a week you are a rarity! However, since it seems you do have a desire for sex you may wish to reconsider the priesthood. You will be involved with a lot of women and some of the things you will hear in counseling or the confessional may only incite that desire and you will have no righteous outlet.

That means you are setting yourself up for a fall at some point or the need to leave the priesthood and if I hear your heart correctly either situation would cause you great distress.  I would not want that for anyone.  There is enough evil and stumbling blocks in the world.  We do not need to create our own.

I will come back to you with some thoughts on that after I answer your questions.

1. Neither of us ever asked the other to change religions; therefore, i did not see this as a problem because of religion. but, am i wrong?

Since she had no real clue as to what being a Baptist is about from that perspective then I suppose it would not have been a problem until you have children. Then in what faith would they have been raised?  As a potential priest, you should know that Catholicism would have required her to switch if you were to be married by a priest and receive the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.   

No priest would have married you without her conversion, which most likely would have been a conversion of convenience or necessity not because of conviction.  Most intra-faith or dual-faith marriages that I know personally or have heard from my peers either end in divorce, neither person attending church and the kids end up something else or agnostic or atheist.  I would not have performed that marriage.

2. Did i break her heart and mine because of fundamental theology differences?

The Bible tells us to not be unequally yoked and marriage is a yoke.  Amos asks how can two walk together except they be agreed?  There are major differences between Catholic and Baptist theology.  While we do concur on some basic issues, there are many that create an unequal yoke.  Even between the various non-Catholic sects there are massive issues and for want of a better expression one should not marry outside of their tribe unless they have studied both sets of doctrine and are convinced that the new tribe is correct and their old one is wrong.  

Sadly, most people in any tribe know very little about their doctrine.  They are what they are because of birth, ethnicity, culture, marriage or they like the preacher, the people or the music in their group. They are in a comfort zone. Very few who name the name of Christ are true Christians no matter what tribe they are in and that number is decreasing daily. Jesus even questioned if there would be faith on the earth when He returned and the Bible speaks of remnants and remnants are small pieces not large ones.  

You spared yourself much more heartbreak by leaving.  It was a wise move.  

3. She said that oral sex is not mentioned in the Bible and because the Bible is silent about oral sex, premarital oral sex not prohibited. do Southern Baptists really believe that?

Just because something is not specifically mentioned in the Scripture does not mean that it is not covered by principle or as a subset of some other issues clearly specified.  She is grossly ignorant of her Bible and biology.  

First of all, the sex organs are reproductive organs, not just pleasure toys.  Indeed, if God had not make sex pleasurable it would have just been one more command we would have disobeyed and we would be worrying about human extinction instead of ZPG or overpopulation. We have overemphasized the pleasure part and have stifled the real use of the organs.  

The old saying, “A place for everything and everything in its place” is rather applicable.  Can reproduction occur in either end of the digestive system?  No. Some Rabbis would teach that ingestion of semen is equal to cannibalism since semen is half a human. The rectum is a sewage disposal system, not a fertile ground for seed sprouting.  Indeed, the rectal sphincter was designed to open and eject whereas the vagina was made to open and receive. Thus by virtue of the creative design of the equipment it really does not matter if it is before or after marriage both activities would not fit into God's design for the reproductive system.  

Paul says in Hebrews that the marriage bed is undefiled not a serial monogamous bed. Even with that, some practices are not condoned.  Quantity and variety of positions are not regulated so if you want to make love 25 times a day and wish to try every position in the Kama Sutra with your spouse that is fine, but it is in the state of matrimony that you want do this.

Indeed, Paul says in 1 Corinthians that a one night stand or one act of intercourse constitutes or consummates a marriage in God's eyes.  Thus she is actually an adulteress since she has lived with several men. Jesus said that the  Samaritan women answered rightly when she said she had no husband in the traditional sense and the one she has was not hers indicating an adulterous liaison.  Jesus also taught that under the New Covenant that just looking with lust constitutes adultery whereas you had to actually do it in the Old Testament to be guilty.   


4. Is that the logic president Clinton, a Southern baptist, used to cheat with Monica orally?

It may have been, but that does not come from Southern Baptist teaching.  Though I am an Independent I know that even the most Liberal of them that I have known would not have condoned that.   Just because she says she is a Baptist of any stripe doesn't mean anything.  I know Catholics who do not practice Catholicism and even hold beliefs contrary to Catholicism but if you ask them they are Catholics. I have told a few that if the Pope knew what they had told me they would be excommunicated but they still call themselves Catholic.  

The same goes with any tribe.  I knew one girl in the Army that was very flirtatious and maybe promiscuous who told me she was a Baptist.  I asked her how that happened and she said when they were doing enlistment papers there was one girl in the room that was Baptist so the other 19 put the same thing since they had no idea what to put.  I told to say she was Episcopalian or something else until she was born again and knew what it meant to be a Baptist.   

You have to wonder if she thought it was not a fornication issue would she find it covered under adultery?  If someone would have given her a ride home on a rainy day after her car broke down would she deem that an appropriate thank you that you should not get upset about since isn't sex?  Who knows, but again leaving was a wise decision.  You would have had to deal with a lot of suspicion in the marriage and that is not good.

Actually, many kids as young as nine are engaging in oral sex and some anal thinking they are still virgins since there was no vaginal sex practiced.  Whether our previous President help fuel that concept I do not know, but kids are often shocked when they get an STD thinking it can only happen with vaginal sex.  It is a very sad age that we live in and certainly one of the signs of the end.  

5. She also said that because she was saved by choosing Jesus and to be born again in baptism when she was 16, that she was saved forever and that she could fornicate as much as she wanted to and still go to heaven when she dies. Do Southern Baptists really believe that?

Unfortunately, one of the weaknesses I have found in the Southern Baptists and other evangelical groups is that many are knowledgeable on how to be saved but after that are pretty ignorant of other issues. She however was ignorant of even that.  

Many churches teach only salvation messages on Sunday mornings since most people visit a church on Sunday morning thus you have a better opportunity to lead a person to Christ.  The problem with that is so few attend Sunday School where doctrine is taught or Sunday nights and Wednesday nights where discipleship issues would be taught making it tough to go from a baby Christian to a mature one difficult. Biblical ignorance leads to a whole rash of problems.  

Sixteen should have been old enough to understand what she was doing, but maybe not.  I was in college with kids that had been raised in a Christian home and taught in a Christian school since K-4 and yet in the fifth year of their Bachelor of Theology class some of these lads were truly born-again. She may have not been ready at 16 and not truly saved.   

A truly saved person will have conviction of sin.  They will never be sinless but they as they grow they should sin less.  It is hard to believe that she could have been that ignorant about the Bible and sexuality, but I suppose it could be so. However, God said that if we sin and are not chastised we are bastards and not His child.  At some point of time she has to undergo chastisement for her sins or she is not saved.  She is deluded or deceived but not saved.  She thinks she is fine so something is wrong with her, not the theology of eternal security.  

True, a person may struggle with things for a long period.  God does take some things from us immediately when we are saved and others He allows so that we will seek Him and depend on Him to remove or hinder our lusts by the Spirit.  Some people that were heavy drinkers are tempted very day of their lives while others drop it and are never bothered by it again. The same happens with other sins but the folks are trying to stop and feel guilty when they fail. She is not feeling any guilt or desiring to stop and that is not a very good sign.   


5. re:1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...

Does once saved always saved supersede: “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators,” doesn’t this mean that fornicators shall not inherit heaven?

I discussed this in question 4 but we must also look at a basic concept.  Sin is the real issue, not sins.  Sins are because of sin and before Adam and Eve fell there was no sin and thus no fruit or manifestations of sin or what we call sins.

A saved person can commit any of a number of sins and still go to Heaven and maybe even sooner than they would like to go.  Our sins have consequences here and in the next life.  We lose blessings here and rewards.  We are held accountable if people go to Hell if we do not seek to win them to Christ and if our life is what causes them to not believe.  There will be tears at the BEMA or Judgment seat of Christ when we have to face our failures.  Paul tells us that that acts of our life are like building a house in 1 Cor 3 and when those acts are tried by fire either we will end up with some gold, silver and precious stones or our house will be burnt to the foundation, which for the born-again Christian, is Christ.  If we have that foundation then we shall be saved but by fire.  How that plays out in eternity we are not really told but it will be a tearful time at that moment.

If we were just born-again like a natural son we could be disinherited, but we are also adopted and the term at time meant once a son that way you are always a son.  An adopted son could never be disinherited.  Therefore, we are saved once and for ever. We can be chastened, lose rewards and even die early but we shall be in glory.

Does that mean we can just sin with impunity?  No.  If we have no desire to live righteously and are not at least guilty or grieved when we do mess up it is a strong indication we are not truly saved.  Shoddy evangelism has created a lot of people who think they are saved and are not.   

People who say they are saved but will not be baptized, do not attend church, do not study the Word or anything that is considered the average or normal Christian life are not saved.  They may have said a prayer, gone through a ritual but if there in no change in their life and no love for the things of God they are not saved.

We are saved to do good works but we are not saved by our works.  The Word is replete with calling man at his best vanity, his works as filthy rags, etc.  We are saved by Christ and Him alone and that is by faith/trust and nothing else.  Not baptism, not ritual, works or anything else but by trust in the work of Christ.  We have nothing to offer Him but He has everything to offer us.  

After salvation He expects us to act as the sons of God but even then if we do works that are not what He wants or in His power we are just adding wood, hay and stubble to our house in 1 Cor 3.   Paul said that there was nothing good in his flesh.  

Our good works are a testimony to the World that we are trusting in Christ and living for Him and they will bring blessing here and there but they do not attain or maintain sonship. That is a one-time act of grace bestowed upon us for our faith.  We are declared righteous for that trust.  Just as one act of distrust/sin kicked man out of Eden one act of trust/righteousness secures Heaven.  We became sinners through Adam's work and we become saints through Christ's work.  We rest in that for Heaven and serve out of gratitude and love not law and fear.

Doctrine must be studied and evaluated by the doctrine itself, not those who claim to be adherents of a doctrine.  Truth is truth whether or nor anyone adheres to it.

-------------

OK, now back to you. Paul said it was better to marry than to burn or fight sexual desires and passion. Though your self-control has been a model thus far you have to consider if you can do it for life. Jesus said some are born eunuchs, some are made eunuchs of men and some make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God's sake.  

It does not appear that you were born a eunuch or have low testosterone for the zeal to mate kicks in when you are with a woman.  I doubt that anyone is going to castrate you and make you a harem guard so that leaves us with the last one.  Now, if you really think that you can squelch this for life, then rock on and I definitely salute you as I know I could not have done it and married at 18.

Y'all can make up rules if you want to but surely you know that Paul teaches in 1 Timothy 3 that a bishop/pastor MUST be the husband of one wife.  Even the OT priests had wives but were given limits on who they could marry so I am not sure where the celibacy thing came from as it is not from Scripture.  Admittedly, there are misadventures by pastors who are married but I am afraid the celibacy issue opened up more cans of worms than necessary.

I can attest to the fact that ministry is far better with a good wife to help.  I can also relate better to the family issues of my congregation since I have a wife, raised two kids and now have grandchildren.  Book knowledge is good but it is never as good as experience in many areas.  

If you want to do ministry you do not need to choose between family and ministry. This one of those main areas where Catholics and many groups disagree. You may wish to study this issue more carefully and maybe look into one of Orthodox church groups who allow married ministers.  Again, it depends upon how confirmed you are in the beliefs of Catholicism.  The Orthodox groups would be closer to Catholicism albeit I am not endorsing them.  If I were convinced they were right I would be a Metropolitan, not a Pastor.  ;-)  

I would encourage to study your Bible, especially the Pauline epistles, Paul. ;-) You have obviously done more study than your Baptist ex-gf, but I would suggest you do a lot more before you make your decision to a life of celibacy or to have a family.

Father, I ask that you would give Paul much wisdom and discernment through Your Word as he seeks direction for His life and he has shown that he wants Your will.  Therefore I ask that you give him a strong sense of Your direction and illuminate his mind and spirit with Your Spirit!  In Jesus' name, Amen!

Blessings and peace be unto you!