Expert: Mrs. Priscilla Lyons - 10/6/2011

Question
QUESTION: Hello Mrs. Priscilla Lyons,

I'm Beth from a United Methodist Church, and we had a church that is United Pentecostal Church rent in our sanctuary while they were going through having their own building built. We continued to use the sanctuary in the morning, like we always do. ANd the UPC used our sanctuary in the evening. Our senior pastor and our members invited the UPC people into our church services on Sunday mornings. Our church would invite them over the summer months, and this was the second year in a row. I have a very big concern for this group: I have notice when their members talk to me that I needed to be rebaptized in Jesus' name, receive the Holy Spirit with the required evidence of speaking in tongues. And then, they had a very rigged dress code. They are very strict and preach that holiness is the skirts all the way down to the ankles and that if you come to church without wearing hose you were going to hell. They mean to say that I would not be saved for wearing a miniskirt, and I also attend church bare-legged without hose. First, my mother has always taught me that we are saved by grace through faith without legalism. My dad is the associate pastor, and I often wear a miniskirt and I go bare-legged a lot duriing the summer because it's hot. My mother and father never really get on to me about.The strict church that is very strict, and legalistic adding to salvation, quotes the Scripture, I Tim. 2:9 Women adorn yourselves in modest apparel... However, its good to use scripture, but you must take it in the context it was written in. In the time when Paul wrote it, women wore too much clothes and accesories, and were not dressing discreetly. The problem with what they say is that they left out the second part of that scripture!!! They need to use the whole scripture if they are going to quote from the Bible.  The NIV translation says,"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes."  See what I mean?? The women in Paul's day wore too much, the way they dressed was over-the-top. You have to take scripture in context.

In matters pertaining to conversion, I believe the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 and 13, the NIV translation. "That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." And then if that's not enough, Romans 10:13 tells us "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Because we believe very strongly and because it was the 400th anniversay of the KJV, we had a banner made with Romans 10:13 in KJV language; it was a 14 foot banner that read; For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Because, salvation is for whosoever will call on the name of the Lord.  Calling on the name of the Lord is the 'means' of salvation, but not water baptism or being strict.  As Methodists: We are absolutely convinced that we are “Saved by grace through faith” without legalism. We believe that salvation is for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord. The moment you make just the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord; you receive the promise, “Shall be saved.” We also believe that just the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord, is required to experience conversion, and you do it without legalism, without being strict, without doctrinal conformity, without specific ritual procedures, without water baptism, and without speaking in tongues.

It was last year when I decided to believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that God raised Christ from the dead and I called on the name of the Lord, beleiving that it was my faith that made me free and saved. Faith is the evidence. Calling on the name of the Lord concludes my conversion without any other sign, evidence, or stipulation. Scripture is clear about this. Scripture is also clear in Galatians that we are not supposed to add to our salvation, to maintian our salvation, or to do stuff to get God to accept us.  Jesus said on the cross, "IT IS FINISHED."  It appears that this group really believes that Jesus said:  "It is continuing??"  

Yes, I do wear miniskirts and I go bare-legged without hose when I go to church as much as possible, as long as it is warm enough outside.  HOwever, this strict Pentecostal group has been very judgmental towards us; saying we are liberal just because we have no standard of holiness (holiness to them is the skirt to the angles).  I believe holiness is holiness of heart, holiness of life, and holiness to love God and neighbor as myself.  Yep, one them did mention that I should not be wearing a miniskirt and quoted the Scripture I Tim. 2:9. OUr senior pastor's wife saw it and told him: We are absolutely convinced that we are saved by grace through faith without legalism. You must believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that God raised Christ from the dead, and call on the name of the Lord, and the moment you make just the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord, you shall be saved.” They further iterated, “You call on the name of the Lord with faith in God, and you do it without legalism.”

I do not think their is anything wrong with speaking in tongues, for my dad speaks in tongues. I would not mind trying to speak in tongues. Do not mind the baptism of the Holy Spirit, however, I disagree with the extreem legalism. And speaking in tongues being a requirement for salvation.

And, their church is almost done being built, and they invited our congregation unto their church for a service, next week. Our pastor told us to be ourselves. As long as it is warm enough, I want to wear a miniskirt and go bare-legged without wearing hose, because its uncomfortable to do so. Some have taught me that its okay to look pretty.  I just do not believe that holiness is a long skirt, and I should not do something just because someone else says so, and do something out of peer pressure from the other church.  I do believe we need to be careful around this other church when of if we do go?  However, holines and salvation is the work of Christ in me.  

I know your a woman from a different church; I believe it is very beneficial to tell my situation and ask questions to you.  Do you know of anything about this other Pentecostal group?  They are non-Trinitarian, believe in necessity of water baptism, tongues is required, and being strict is required.  What is your interpretation on I Tim. 2:9?  I disagree about the rules.  Since I was saved, I know you must believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that God raised him from the dead and call on the name of the Lord for God to save you for conversion.  How would handle it if you were to visit a church like this?
 Thank you for all your help, Have a Nice Day,Beth

ANSWER: Dear Beth,
   Thank you for writing.  
   For people to take credit for any part of salvation (if they speak in tongues, are baptized, wear the most conservative clothes, or whatever they think they have to do to be saved) is telling God that His most expensive Gift, salvation through the perfect sacrifice of His only begotten Son, is not good enough.  As you mentioned, Galatians warns us against relying on anything but God's salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.
   God created us in His image to reflect His glory like an image reflected in a mirror.  II Cor.3:18 As we keep our eyes on Him, we'll be continually changing to be more like Him by the power of His Spirit in us.  It's possible for Christians to disagree on what to wear and still appreciate each other as we love the Lord and seek to share that love with others.  The more facets (different sides) a diamond has, the more brilliantly it reflects light.  We aren't cookie cutter Christians.
   Romans 14 describes differences among Christians, but love allows us to give up our rights in order to not be a stumbling block for others.  Like you said, you may want to be careful around this other church.  Also, pray for them and for God's wisdom and maybe for opportunity to help them realize a better understanding of the Bible.
   Personally I think wearing hose is an uncomfortable, unhealthy, wasteful, vain way to try to improve the looks of ones legs.   
   We want to bring honor to God with the looks He has given us.  We want others to be attracted to the message of eternal life that we have.  But exactly how we do that comes from the work of Christ in us, like you said.
   I agree with you about I Tim. 2:9.  I think it warns us against using what we wear to draw so much attention to ourself, our wealth, or beauty, that the inner beauty God wants to shine through us is lost.  I think verse 11 is harder, and verse 12 is often ignored by Pentecostals who have women preachers.
   I pray that my perspective has been beneficial to you as you hoped.  I am encouraged by your interest as a young person.
   Love,
   Mrs. Lyons

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Yes, one that brings a self-sufficient attitude to God is really saying they have no need of anything, even God.  If we can find ways to appease God, no one will need Jesus, a Savior, calvary, or the cross because they have everything already????

I have been asking for clarification from my minister, and I want to help clarify something between Baptists and Methodists.  Some baptists take a Methodist sacrament of water baptism, and say we mean that one has to be water baptized to be saved.  When really, we mean baptism is a sacrament where Christ's work has been always at work in the person's life.  God has bound himself to the sacraments, but his grace is not bound by the sacraments.  In other words, God is always regenerating, conveying grace.  Water baptism is 'not the only' juncture one gets grace/regeneration.  If that were the case, that is the heresy known as:  baptismal regeneration.  Some modern examples would be Lutherans (even though they started the reformation), Episcopal/Anglican (hmmmmm, they initiated an original split from Catholicism like the Lutherans, hmmmm, no wonder why they would still preach baptismal regeneration), the Church of Christ, and the group we rented our sanctuary with, the United Pentecostal Church International.  Baptismal regenerationists believe one 'has to' be baptized, is the 'means of' salvation, and is the 'moment' one receives justification.  On the other hand, as Methodists, we do not believe that baptism is the means of salvation.

However, I spoke with some our lay ministry, and they said that just the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord is required to confirm a conversion.  I asked for our traditional sources.  OUr United Methodist book of discipline has a question that ALL ordination candidates have to answer:  "How do you interpret the statement Jesus Christ is Lord?"  A real Methodist would believe in the heart, believe that God raised Christ from the dead.  And the moment they make just the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord, they shall be saved.  

I agree with you about Romans 14.  For the taking credit for our salvation by wearing the most conservative clothing, we do agree with the passage in Romans 14.  We have freedom in Christ because of his grace to choose whether to eat the meat or not eat the meat.  Paul dealt with personal preferences in Romans 14.  That Pentecostal church tended to give us their preferences of what to wear and not to wear.  It is just my preferences to wear a miniskirt and go bare-legged without hose to church.  Others found out about what they were saying in my church.  One lady staff member said, for this Sunday that, I can wear a miniskirt and be bare-legged.  They said we are saved by grace through faith without legalism.

Now, as for the part of what I said about the view of baptism as sacrament as Methodists in relation to a Baptist perception of it, what do you think?  Just because a Methodist has a sacramental view of baptism does not mean they believe it is 'the means of salvation' or believe in 'baptismal regeneration.'  Just would like to have your insight about my clarification.

Praise the Lord, Beth

Answer
Thanks for your kind rating, Beth, and for writing back.  I think your clarification is very clear, and I agree with you.
   Although different local churches sometimes lean more one way than another, Baptist stand on baptism is that it is never a part of salvation either.  It is usually linked with church membership, and I don't agree with a Baptist practice of going forward at the invitation to be voted on for church membership/baptism.  Baptism is called a sacrament like the communion bread and "wine."
   Our pastor recently preached from Matt.3:11-15.  Obviously Jesus had no sins of which to repent for John's baptism of repentance.  When John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire to burn up the chaff (sin), John may not have realized that he was speaking of the inward baptism of salvation that burns away our sins.  When we are saved by grace through faith not of ourselves, we receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.  Then we are clean to be baptized outwardly, as Jesus was, "to fulfill all righteousness."  So the water baptism is an outward sign of the inner transformation of cleansing by the Holy Ghost.
   My understanding of a true faith in the true God, Creator of everything, is that we express our agreement with God that sin is harmful, that we want forgiveness through the death and resurrection of Jesus, and we want God to change us to be more like Himself.  A person who has said the "right words" but wants to keep living for him/herself, instead of believing that God has the best plan for their life, I would encourage to take a second look at their "salvation".  I can't see inside them, so I can't say whether they are saved or not, but I would question myself if I didn't believe serving Jesus as my Lord, is best--better than serving my own interests.  Not to say I don't stray from that, but I do know better and want God's will even when I don't feel like it, even when I may not understand God's will.
   We have people in our church who probably don't agree with me.  It seems that some people only want a "touch" of Christianity on Sunday morning.  But there are others in our small church who are a wonderful encouragement to me with their open appreciation of God and His Word.
   I pray for you to keep on checking things out by His Word.
   Sincerely,
   Mrs. Lyons