Expert: Dr. Ronald E. Shultz - 9/17/2004

Question
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Followup To
Question -
My question is, How do you feel about once in grace always in grace, I personally don't agree with it, but a topic of this was brought up with a new boyfriend of my sisters, and we were brought up NO, because just like being a parents if a child does wrong, and continues to do the same thing over and over again, we in our hearts would feel they are not truely sorry for their sins, like I feel our heavenly father would feel, if you continue to do wrong (sin) and knowingly continue to do this same thing, then to me that goes to Catholic whom drink, sorry no offese to Catholics, but they repent and repent and repent,  that you must not of truely been saved to begin with or as we call born again,  if you turn your back on God.  We consider this to be a backslider.  Please help me to have bible scriptures to back up my beliefs.....because he brought up that scripture where we will be forgived please don't quote me on this one, but 70 times 7 or something like that, thank you
Answer -
Sorry, but most Baptists are eternal securists or once saved always saved, so I can't help you with that position.

It is very likely that many who say they are saved are not saved.  But, if a person is truly saved they are saved forever or they were never saved at all because of the very nature of the word saved.  It means delivered. Delivered from what? Judgment, second death, Hell.  If you can lose your deliverance than you are not saved only only probation.

What if a man saves a person from drowning and the person curses out the man who did the saving because the one saved was bruised in the process or the swim suit got damaged during the rescue or say a man saved a woman and she thinks he got fresh while dragging her in?  Is she saved from drowning or not?  Will he drag her back out and let her drown?  Hardly.  If he did then she was not saved only temporarily reprieved.

Would your parents disown you if you got into drugs and prostitution?  Maybe, but they could not deny that you are theirs because of their DNA in you.  They would most likely pray for you, plead with you and depending on you age discipline you but you would still be their kid and they would keep trying.

God who is better at those things than your parents has the same scenario.  If you are saved then you are in His Son and His Son is in you and the DNA is fixed.  He will pray for you, discipline and plead with you but He has an option your parents don't have in that He can bring you home through death.  

Paul says we are adopted.  That is important terminology. By Roman law, you could disinherit a natural child because in their eyes you got the luck of the draw.  However, if you adopted a child you made the choice and he could never be disinherited.  So, God says we are born again of incorruptible seed meaning we can't die because the seed can't die like Adam's seed and then He doubles the deal by saying we are adopted meaning He will not disinherit us.

1 Cor 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(KJV)

A disobedient child is building a sorry building and will suffer loss but he will be saved.  

1 Cor 5:1-5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (KJV)

Here is a Christian involved in a sin that even the heathen find wicked and Paul says to kick him out of the church if he doesn't repent so that He can be killed but the spirit of the person will be saved.  A Christian can choose to sin until God says that is enough you are outta there!

I Jn 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (KJV)

Good men disagree as to whether this is a specific sin or a lifestyle of unrepentant and willful sin.  Either way it ends in physical death but as we saw in Corinthians the person will be saved from Hell.

There are many other teachings on the security of the believer.  The 70X7 passage is specifically speaking of Christians forgiving people and showing it would be tough to keep track of sin so just forgive.  If God wants us to be like that and we are to be holy as He is holy it is logical to assume that He practices what He preaches and uses a similar system.

Ps 130:3-4
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. (KJV)

Even David realized that God did not grade on raw percentile or even on a curve because no one would pass.  It is all about grace and mercy based on the Blood not my works in any way shape or form before or after salvation.

A gift is free or else it is a reward or payment for my hard work.  

Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (KJV)

Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (KJV)

So, I cannot help you in your Arminian belief because I do not share it.  Hopefully, this has been of some help to you anyway.

Blessings to you as you study His Word!

I respect the beliefs of others, I don't believe all baptists feel as you say, we are freewill baptist and don't believe once in grace always in grace, we are not on this earth to judge, though I find it very hard when a christian is found in a bar, drinking and acting very un chrisitian like, and representing a church that they may belong too, what sets them aside from the rest of the non believers, HOW DOES THIS LOOK, we are not to  want the worldly things, our soul is cleansed and we are a new creature,  we would or should have no desire to be in a place that is unGodly... to me this is not very christian like, what sets us aside from looking or acting like a sinner, or what makes a sinner want to be like us,   if I understand correctly you believe they are still saved by grace, and will go to heaven......I feel they won't, of course the over all decision is Gods and not ours.....on judgement day...  

Answer
Actually, I said most Baptists.  I am aware of Freewill Baptists.  The bottom line comes down to are we saved by works of the law or by grace?  

While I would agree with you that a person acting like you describe does not look good we are not to judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.  Many people are moral and dress right and talk right but they are going to Hell.  

You are looking at sins but Christ dealt with sin.  Christ paid for every sin ever committed with His death on the Cross.  People will go to Hell because they did not choose to accept the payment not because they were not paid for.  If I give the car dealer a check to buy you a car and you run down there and tear it up you have to pay for your car but not because you had to but because you refused the payment made.  

The verses I gave you are very clear that some folks will be in Heaven that did not lead very godly lives.  They will lose reward and they may have died years before God wanted them to because of their sin but they will still be saved.  

Think of this.  How many sins did Adam and Eve commit to bring death into the world?  One.  One act of disobedience put us all in the same of sin, death and judgment. Paul says that just as one act of sin killed us one obedient act of sacrifice for that sin makes us alive.  In essence, after that the rest is just details.  It will affect blessings here and rewards there if we don't live godly, but once a child always a child.  

Even in the OT before we were in Christ and sealed with the Spirit God spare David who committed the two "unpardonable" sins since there were no provisions in the law for a sacrifice for those sins.  You murdered or committed adultery and you were supposed to die without question.  Yet God left him live.  He knew that Christ's sacrifice would pay for those sins when bull's blood would not.

How many sins can you sin before you lose your salvation?  What if you lived godly for 30 years and one day you looked upon a person in lust and before you could ask for forgiveness a car killed you?  Would you go to Heaven or Hell?  Would it be a toss up?  If you went to Hell then you weren't saved those 30 years.  You were on probation not in salvation.  

You belief should lead you to live in constant fear of going to Hell even if you believe in Christ.  John says that mature love casts out fear.  How does my love mature and trust if I can mess up at anytime and be cast out?  It can't.

If He gives us eternal life then it is eternal not eternal until we mess up.  You are either saved or you are not.  Paul and Barnabas had a big argument and split up but in the end Paul asked for John Mark to come to him.  Were the three of them near Hell until they got that argument resolved?  Peter played the hypocrite in Galatia until Paul chewed him out.  Was Peter lost and going to Hell had he died before Paul straightened him out?   I don't think so in any of those scenarios.  

If I am in the Body of Christ does He cut pieces out and graft them in every other second based upon sins?  Will He send a foot or a liver to Hell if it acts up?  Will a piece of His Bride get ripped out or will He divorce you?  Nope.  He hates putting away (divorce) so I don't think He will do it though He would have every right. However we had unreconcilable differences until He reconciled them on the Cross and we were unfit to be a part of the Bride but He made us fit and keeps us even when we are stupid or disobedient.

If our works cannot earn our salvation then our works cannot earn us keeping it.  Christ did all the work in our salvation.  We get a gift and He does not take it back.

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (KJV)

God has not cast away Israel.  He will still bless them.  Note the last verse.  Salvation is a gift and we are predestined to be like Christ.  That is our calling and he is not taking back gifts or callings.

You can live in gratitude of the gift or work in fear to keep it but the gift is still yours.  Choose gratitude.

Peace be unto you.