Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 2/9/2004

Question
Dear Pastor Carpenter,

Thank you for referring me to the book 'The Trail of Blood' by Dr. Carroll.  I must say I found it entertaining.  He attempts to show that historical heretical groups, the Montanists, Novatianists, Donatists, Paulicians, Albigensians, Catharists, Waldenses, and Anabaptists were really early Baptists, and that they were pursued by Catholics and wiped out. There is no evidence of this because the 'evidence' was destroyed by the Catholic Church. Apparently, many Baptist theologians reject this story as unfounded and not credible.

Here is some information on those groups:

1. Montanists denied all second marriages, even after the death of the spouse. They required all virgins to wear veils in church and denied the forgiveness of sins, thus making a movement without hope.

2. Novatianists taught that no sin was to be forgiven after Baptism. They too denied second marriages under any circumstances. Novatian covertly had himself declared a Bishop and was subsequently ex-communicated.

3. Donatists taught that the true church consisted only of the elect and that Baptisms were only valid when performed by a Donatist.

4. Paulicians believed in the plurality of gods, held that all matter was bad, rejected the Old Testament, denied the incarnation, and said Christ was an angel. They refused to honour the cross by saying Christ had not been crucified.

5. Albigensians believed in two gods, one good and the other evil. They rejected all sacraments, and declared it was sinful to marry. This promoted sexual permissiveness. Pregnancy was to be avoided and abortion was promoted.

6. Catharists were followers of all the heresies of the Albigensians.

7. Waldenses taught that the Church should have no property and condemned tithing. Interestingly, they accepted the Holy Eucharist as the Body of Christ.

8. Anabaptists, practiced polygamy and communism. They condemned oaths as unlawful. Anabaptists were founded by Thomas Munser in 1521. I think this fact alone refutes the Baptist claim to antiquity.

My question to you is this:  Having recounted the
deeds of these heretical groups, why would anyone want to claim any as ancestral proof of origin?
My final question is this:  If we can only believe what is in the Bible, does the Bible ever even hint that John the Baptist founded a church?

If Evangelical Baptists have existed since the time of John the Baptist, then I think history books should have many references to them. The writings of the early church fathers, the historians of their day, do not mention Evangelicals or Baptists at all. But what is very interesting is that the writings of scores of them mention the Catholic church by name, hundreds of times. In the writings of Saint Augustine (354-430) alone, he mentions the Catholic Church, by name, over 300 times.

Regards,

Les

Answer
Hi Les,

THank you for your question.  As I said in my profile, I am not here for doctrinal debate.  Let me just say this.  Jesus built the church on Himself, the "petra" or Bedrock mentioned in Matt 16.  He did not build it on Petros, (Peter) = "little stone".  I gave scripture to that effect in a previous post.  

Since you bring up the subject of herrisy...  Let us look at Paul's warning and what kind of things Heritics would be teaching:

1 Timothy 4:1-5


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

WHat are the marks of these false teachers?

1.  Consciences seared - Only that could happen to allow the evil of the inquisition, accepting of indulgences, and the rape and molestation of alter boys.

2.  Forbidding to marry. - THe unbiblical requirement of priests not to marry.

3.  Forbiding of meats - the unbiblical requirements of no meat on Friday.

These are just a few samples of the error, but they are doctrines earmarking the Roman Catholic CHurch.

In Christ
Pastor Don