Expert: John of AllFaith - 11/30/2006

Question
If one are gay, how can you try to become a leader at the church? I mean I can see if you have repented, and asked God for forgiveness and turn from your old ways;but, how can you become a church memeber? If the church excepted the man as a deacon or whatever else would they not be following the doctrines? How can one be in a relationship with a person of the same sex and go and attend a church as if nothings wrong? How can a church except that? For I am a COC member and I have been reading from this site for a while and it seems as if baptist are trying to say things that will make the person feel good.I read something and the answer was foolish, I just dont agree with this.I am 16 and I have many friends who are baptist many and they can't tell me what they actually believe: could you please explain what you believe? Like baptism, women deacons, instrumental music,gay people attending your church these are the things I would like to be answered with scriptual proof?

Answer
Hi Davy,
You ask several questions here. It would take a very long reply to answer them all in-depth. I will therefore give a rather cursory overview here. If you wish more information on any specific question please write back.

You mention you are 16. In the past a couple of readers your age have felt my answers were too complicated (and gave me bad rating marks because of it). I don't believe in "talking down" to people, if you are 16 you are probably quite intelligent and able to understand what follows. But if this is too hard to understand, please let me know and I will gladly reword it.

In a nutshell:
An individual Baptist determines what he/she believes the Bible teaches and follows that. Individuals should come together in the churches with like minded Baptists. The freedom however, always remains with the individual Baptist who alone will stand or fall before God.

Here's why:
One of the unique doctrines held by Baptists is known as the "Priesthood of all Believers." This view says that no authority, other than God and the Bible, can dictate what Baptists are to believe. Because of this important (and biblical) teaching, Baptists are a very eclectic group of people. Some are "hard-core fundamentalists" (like say Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwel) while others are very "liberal" (for instance Jesse Jackson). This is a great strength of Baptist theology in my opinion.

In order for Baptists to justify what they believe, for instance about homosexuality, a person must present biblical evidence that it is forbidden or accepted (depending on which side one is on). If one can prove, to one's own satisfaction, that the presentation is accurate, then one can be a Baptist in good standing, even if other Baptists disagree. Obviously this doctrine is not always followed! There are people who are so certain they are correct that they will not allow others to exercise their priesthood before Jesus as Baptist doctrine demands.

In my opinion, there is not a single word in the King James Version of the Bible (nor in the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts from which it is translated) that forbids or even negatively comments on monogamous, same gender marriages and dating. I will be happy to show proof of this belief upon request. Just ask. Either ask about specific verses (Rom. 1., the Sodom account, etc) or in general.

Now since as a Baptist, I can present such biblical proof, no other Baptist, who honors the Priesthood of all Believers, has the right to deny my right to believe as I do as a Baptist. Others do not have to agree with me, but they must accept me as a fellow Baptist... in theory.

However, Baptists also believe in the absolute autonomy of the local church. In other words, every Baptist church has the right to determine its own doctrines and practices. Therefore, Baptist church boards, pastors, etc. have every right in the world to officially condemn homosexuality among their members, to refuse ordinations and arguably even to deny membership to gays in their local church (I would debate that later right). So its a catch-22, an irresolvable dilemma.

Those Baptist churches that choose to accept gays and lesbians, and there are many, have every right as Baptists and Christians to do so, including ordaining them, marrying them and so on, under the doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers and the autonomy of the local church. Other Baptist churches are equally entitled not to.

When it comes to groups like the Southern Baptist Convention, in my opinion, they DO NOT have the right to require member churches to hold any set doctrinal views because such denies the autonomy of the local congregation (although it can be argued that since local churches choose to unite into such groups they do have that right...).

The Church of Christ (depending on which sub-denomination) operates a little differently than the Baptists in that they have national boards etc. that set accepted doctrine and practices. It is this Priesthood of all Believers that is different here.

What Baptists believe:
In most respects Baptists believe the same as most other Christians. They accept the Nicene Creed, the Apostle's Creed, etc. They accept doctrines such as the Trinity, salvation by grace, heaven, hell, etc.

Another area where Baptists are different is the doctrine of Eternal Security (which I also believe is the biblical teaching). According to this teaching, once a person is saved, once he/she accepts Jesus as saviour, that person will never loose his/her salvation, period. The COC believes one can lose salvation and be saved again as I understand it. The Bible says that 'were it possible to lose salvation, one could never again be saved because that would mean Christ would have to die a second time.' I paraphrase. Baptists therefore believe that upon salvation we are "adopted" into the family of God. God, as Father, keeps His own. Again, more info will be sent if you request it.

Most Baptists honor Sunday as the "Lord's Day," there are a few Seventh Day Baptists who honor the Sabbath (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday).

Baptism, is the same I think. It does not save a person, it is an outward symbol that the person has been saved, hence it is not given to infants. It is nonetheless a strict requirement for the newly saved. A person must be old enough to make a conscious decision for Christ (I was saved and baptized at 12 years old).

Baptists Vary on women in the ministry, deacons, pastors and so on. Because Paul specifically forbids women from these roles, many Baptists do not allow it. Others believe Paul's words there should be taken in a more historic context. Hence some churches allow women deacons, some allow women to be pastors. Again, each church determines this. I would think that the majority of Baptist churches today will allow women as deacons but not as pastors (many churches allow them act as co-pastors with their husbands).

Only the "Primitive Baptist" sub-denomination forbids music as far as I know. All other Baptists utilize it. Some only allow organs, pianos and hymns, while others have complete orchestras and/or "Christian rock" bands. It depends on the church.

Most Baptist churches allow closeted gays as members but forbid them any ministry roles. They can not teach Sunday school, be deacons, etc. A minority of Baptist churches expel known homosexuals from their churches. A few offer all full rights.

It is my opinion, that everyone, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. should be granted full rights in all churches, membership to clergy. Why? Because God does not discriminate against anyone.

I believe that the verses forbidding women in ministry should be considered according their historic circumstances. I also believe, as I say above, that the Bible nowhere condemns homosexuality.

Again, feel free to write about any of these or other topics.

~John of AllFaith