Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 9/22/2005

Question
Thank you for your quick response Pastor Don.  I am very thankful and appreciative of what you have said thus far.  I do have some follow-ups for you and would like to start by quoting some of your response as a point of reference.  Here goes:

You said:

"Now to where the rubber meets the road. There is only one major English translation that comes exclusively from the T. R. - the King James Version. Every other modern English translation comes from all or part of the critical text. THe problem is that parts of the critical text weaken such doctrines as the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, and the Trinity, just to name a few."

Would it be possible for you to give me 2 or 3 comparative scriptural versus between King Jams Version and NIV (New International Version) and explain where the doctrines of the virgin birth, deity of Christ and the Trinity are weakened in NIV and preserved fully in KJV?  You can just tell me book, chapter and verse if you like and I will be happy to look them up as I have BOTH KJV and NIV bibles.

"Do we have a perfectly preserved copy of God's Word? ABSOLUTELY! And you will find it in a King James Bible."

Where can I find out more about T. R. which is where KJV was derived from?

"I know that this may have been more than you barganed for. I hope that this helps you as you try to think these things through."

It has helped immensely.  Thank you very much.

One last question.  How do you feel about Rick Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven Life"?  Have you read it?  I only ask because he makes all sorts of references to scripture but pulls them from numerous versions of the bible.

However, I found his message to be very compelling, moving and inspiring.

God bless and peace be with you.
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Followup To
Question -
"I believe that every word of the Bible is God-Breathed. This blessed book is the foundation of truth for faith and practice."

In reference to your above quote.  I have some questions, but let me start by explaining myself a little.  I am a christian of approximately 2 years now and I have been reading the bible (and about the bible from various respected Pastors) for even longer than I have been a christian.

I too believe that every word of the Bible is the true word of God, but I want to feel more confident about why I believe what I believe about the Bible.  In other words, when I tell others that I accept every word of the Bible is truth and they ask me, "then why are there so many different versions of the bible" or "then why are there so many different interpretations of the bible" or even "then why are there so many different denominations of religion"...what can I tell them as I honestly wonder this myself.

How reliable are translations from Hebrew or Greek to the modern day languages we have today?  How can I feel more confident in the reliability?

Don't get me wrong.  The wisdom that I have thus learned from the Bible has not once been proven wrong in my own experience.  I truly love God with all my mind, heart and soul.  The area that I am working on in my faith is to be "wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove".  I know that I will have to eventually read the bible in its entirety and acquire the skill for memorizing scripture so that I may draw from it at a moments notice; just as Jesus did when he went off into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.

I look forward to your response.

Peace be with you and God bless you.

PS - I clicked private question only in that I don't want my full name revealed out in the open.  You are more than welcome to use my first name if you wish to place this question out for all to see.  I would be honored if it helps bring others to the Lord.
Answer -
Hi Rob,

Thanks for your questions.  I will try to answer them briefly.  If you require clarification, feel free to post a follow up, or check our web site at http://ebc.cleaninter.net (sermon notes and question and answers), or e-mail me directly at ebc@cleaninter.net.  Let me go from the simple to the complex.

1.  Why are there so many interpretations of the same passage.... why are there many denominations.  People interpret the Bible based upon their presuppositins about truth in general and the inspiration of the Bible specifically.  Today, in this post modern world, many people view truth as relative and personal.  In the view of many, you and I could hold differing religious positions and both be right...because we are both convinced that we are.  This is rediculous!  If I took LSD and was convinced that gravity had no hold upon me, I still would not be able to fly!  God's word tells us that there is only one primary interpretation for a given passage.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

So then scripture should be taken at face value, read normally, as you would any other piece of literature.  You will find that people of all cultures who hold that the Bible is THE source of truth, and that it should be read normally, not symbolically or critically, come up with essentially the same basic and fundamental doctrines.

Now let us consider the question of modern translations.  This is quite a can of worms that you have opened here.  I am sure that many of my fine collegues here at allexperts.com will disagree with my take, but here goes.

1.  I believe that the Word of God is inspired or literally, "God-Breathed" as it was written in the original manuscripts.  Every Word that the men of old wrote down was the exact word that God wanted them to write.

2 Peter 1:21
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Many people agree up to that point.

2.  I also believe that EVERY WORD has not only been inspired in the original manuscripts, but has been preserved in the copies of manuscripts throughout the ages.

Psalm 12:6-7
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

3.  As you might imagine, the scritpures written in the original languages were copied over and over through out the centuries.  The question comes up as to the reliability of the copies.  Now, without getting deep into the science of textual criticism, let us simply understand that all of the existing original language manuscripts come essentially from two sources;  one family of manuscripts comes from Alexandria, Egypt while the other comes from Antioch, Syria.  Of all of the existing manuscripts, less than 1% come from Alexandrea, the other 99% come from Antioch.  There are many scholars ( who do not believe that God has and will preserve every word that He has written) who believe that the best manuscripts are the oldest.  The oldest manuscripts are the 3 or 4 major manuscripts coming from Alexandrea. These few manuscripts contradict each other more than 3000 times in the synoptic gospels alone!  But, proponents of this view feel that in spite of these contradictions, this is the best that we have so something is better than nothing , and God did not allow anything too major to slip in undectected. This is known as the critical position.  

There are others, this pastor included, who do believe that God has preserved every word.  The other family of copies from Antioch known as the Received Text or the Textus Receptus, have more that 5000 existing manuscript copies.  Among all of these hand written copies, there is no varience!  A manuscript scholar by the name of Tinshendorf said that these copies speak "with one voice".
I believe that the Textus Receptus is the absolutly perfectly preserved WOrd of God in the original languages.  This position is known as the preservationist position.

Now to where the rubber meets the road.  There is only one major English translation that comes exclusively from the T. R.  -  the King James Version.  Every other modern English translation comes from all or part of the critical text.  THe problem is that parts of the critical text weaken such doctrines as the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, and the Trinity, just to name a few.

Do we have a perfectly preserved copy of God's Word?  ABSOLUTELY!  And you will find it in a King James Bible.

I know that this may have been more than you barganed for.  I hope that this helps you as you try to think these things through.  I have a question on my website regarding KJV.  You will find some more details regarding this issue as well as some comparisons with english versions that come from what I believe to be a corrupted text.  Here is the link to that question:  

http://ebc.cleaninter.net/sermons/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=5&tid=200


I hope that this has been a help to you.

In Christ,
Pastor Don  

Answer
Hi Rob,

Thanks for your kind words and your follow up questions.  First of all, let me say that the best book for you to begin your study of this issue is "Touch Not The Unclean Thing".  I will paste a link to this book in a moment.  This is a Doctrinal Thesis on this subject in which the author introduces laymen and Pastors who are new to the textual controversy to this subject.  There is a lot of mud slinging going on about the KJV debate, and David Sorenson helps give a ballenced look at it.

http://www.northstarministries.com/touchnot.htm

Here are some examples of the differences in the texts:

Major doctrines are corrupted by the Alexandrian copies and the modern English translations. – Compare versions:

A. Redemption

1. Luke 9:56 - For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Luke 9:56 NIV - and they went to another village.

2. Matthew 18:11 - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 18:11 NIV – doesn't exist

3. Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:14 NIV - in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

4. Galatians 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 6:15 NIV – Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

5. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:16 NIV – I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

6. John 6:47 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:47 NIV – I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

7. 1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:13 NIV – I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

B. Christ's deity

1. 1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I Timothy 3:16 NIV – Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 - 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Philippians 2:5-6 NIV – 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

3. 1 John 5:7-8 - 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I John 5:7-8 NIV – 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

4. John 6:69 - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:69 NIV – We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

C. The Virgin birth

1. Luke 2:33 - And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Luke 2:33 NIV – The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him.

2. Luke 2:43 - And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Luke 2:43 NIV – After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it.

D. Eternal punishment

1. Mark 9:44-46 - 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:44-46 NIV – And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

2. John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:15 NIV – that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

As to Rick Warren's material.... there are some scholars who have great material, but do not understand this issue.  You can benifit from them, just check the real Bible to make sure that they are on target.

I hope that this helps you.

In Christ
Pastor Don