Expert: Rev. Robert Woods - 4/16/2004

Question
thank you for your response, and i think your analogy is a great one.  i dont believe in the true calvanist doctrine....i dont believe in predestination personally other than the way you described it.  i believe that only two people could have remained sinnless: adam and Jesus.  they are the only two not from the seed of man.  jesus had a slight advantage though (sarcasm). i dont believe God makes us sin.  

God has used people for common purpose...e.g. hardening their hearts, how does this fit in?

if predestination is explaining god knowing what we are going to choose, then why is the work used at all?  is there a better greek word or a more clear definition?

can you explain Romans 9.

im kinda playing devils advocate on this for discussion's sake.
thank you for being patient.
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Followup To
Question -
One of my friends just recently started believing in predestination after much studying.  he explained to me everything he believes on the topic and he makes some good points.  

One question (to oppose it) is...why evangelize if God chooses who he wants? i answered that in order for me to believe predest. then i must also believe that God can change his mind on who he chooses. God changed his mind with Moses many times; Moses talked God out of things.

Another thought is that if God says something is just...then it is; i cant argue otherwise.  He chose pharoah for "common use"; he can also choose others.  

The belief on predestination is that if God chooses you, then when you hear the word you will be convicted and will have an  open heart. (not 100% on that)
If this is true then it gives me an overwhelming sense of thankfulness, and i feel lucky.

The fact is that there are a lot of verses to support predest. (that are hard to argue) and not many to oppose. (can be argued away).  i found anohter supporting verse the other day in ACTS 13:48 "appointed" NIV.

im assuming that you dont believe in the Calvanist view of predestination so what verses and reasons are there to refute predest.?
Answer -
John Calvin is probably the best known advocate of the teaching of
unconditional predestination.  Due to this, supporters of the view
are often termed "Calvinists."  Here are some of the things Calvin
taught, taken from what is possibly his most famous work: THE
INSTITUTES OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION, which comprises four volumes.

  Calvin asserts that all men are made liable to eternal
  death owing to the wonderful counsel of God. God is said
  to have arranged "at his own pleasure" the fall of the
  first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity. He says
  that the depravity of man is a result of God's creation
  and that God had expressly approved what preceded from
  Himself. Further he says, "the first man fell because
  the Lord deemed it meet that he should fall."
  [Calvin's Institutes III xxiii 7, 8]

This is the most revealing aspect of unconditional predestination
because it lays at God's door the responsibility for the fall of
man.  The fall was the act of the first sin.

Calvin is saying that this sin was purposed by God to be carried
out.  Here we have the root of the tree, the real nature of the
beast.

Satan has from the beginning given man to believe that God is not
true.  He has deceived man into believing that God is not all good
and perfect.

The devil wants us to believe that God, who is light, has desired,
purposed or willed (whichever way you want to put it) for evil
(sin) to be carried out.  It is a direct attack (though subtle) on
the character of God.  Scripture is black and white on this issue:

  ...God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
  1 JOHN 1:5 NKJ

Also, with regard to a desire in God to/for sin, it goes on to say:

  ...God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he himself
  tempt anyone.  But each one is tempted when he is drawn
  away by his own desires and enticed.
  JAMES 1:13-14 NKJ

God neither tempts anyone thus enticing them to sin, nor does He
give desires to sin.  He who does not lie cannot at the same time
EVER approve of anyone to sin AND to hate sin.  The thing is, this
is at the root of unconditional predestination and is a wholly
deceitful defamation of God.

By attempting to reconcile God's sovereignty to the fact of evil
in the world and its origin, God is said to initiate evil, while
in reality He is "light and in him is no darkness at all."

God never wants anyone to sin, yet this is what Calvin is telling
us to believe.  It is probably the most fundamental fruit of the
doctrine of unconditional predestination, revealing its true
source.

The devil who tempted Jesus in the wilderness knows well the
Scripture but forever uses it in part and out of context (Mt 4:1-
11) and veils the eyes (2Co 11:3) to the balancing portions of
God's Word.  This unconditional predestination doctrine is a
complete package of deception full of out of context scriptures
and ideas foreign to the very nature of God.

So we are told to believe that God will eventually reject the
hypocrites whom "He never loved" in the first place (THE
SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD by A. W. Pink, page 54, 6th ed.). This flies in
the face of:

  "As I live," says the LORD God, "I have no pleasure in
  the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from
  his way and live. ...
  EZEKIEL 33:11 NKJ

And that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten
son" (Jn 3:16).

Satan constantly works to limit the reality of God's love in the
mind of man, as well as the work of the cross and the effect of
Jesus' blood shed. He hates it.

Limited atonement, therefore, is a "natural" product of
unconditional election: Jesus is said to have shed His blood just
for "the few" who eventually benefit, and God is said to love only
these He has chosen.  If this were so, God is a liar when He
says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked."

Either "God is light and in him is NO darkness AT ALL," or He is
not.  Either he loves them or he does not.

"Ah! but surely anything God desires comes to pass," it is
argued. "If He wanted everyone to be saved, they would be saved;
God's will is always done."  This is a profound misunderstanding
of the nature of God.

God does not impose His will: it is against His nature.  He never
desires sin; He does not will sin.  Yet it is everywhere carried
out by fallen men and women, wasteful of the gifts God has given.  
He convicts of sin and commands to repent, but THIS IS RESISTIBLE
by the gift of free will within every person.

To then say they are unable to repent and turn of their own accord
because God has caused (by an inscrutable wisdom) their nature to
be so depraved they cannot choose for God is to call God a liar.  
According to Calvin, God is said to impart depravity to all so
that they cannot help but sin.

This is defamation of the most serious kind and that upon the
living God -- upon the very Creator of the universe.

Evil, sin, and depravation are not facets of God's Being, and they
NEVER emanated from Him.  "God is light and in Him is no darkness
at all."  He has never decreed that anyone should sin or carry out
any form of evil: this never enters His mind.

The honor of God's Name is at stake here.

  The enemy is so subtle that he has taught this doctrine
  (1Ti 4:1-2) very powerfully.  The truth is that evil
  never emanates from God; it never has and it never will
  in any form or kind.  The error is that God has at some
  point started the process involving man's first sin by
  planning it.

God's love is such that no one is made in any shape or form to do
evil by God nor is he forced to do any good by God.  The way God
is involved in the good in a person's life is by synergy of the
two wills in action.

The will of God is never for evil so this He resists.  For good,
He is inspiring and encouraging and helps in the process as we
will with Him for these things.  He cannot by His very nature
impose His will upon our will.  This is the stumbling block of
those who currently believe in unconditional predestination.

God never enables someone to do something he himself does not will
in his very being.  Even to Christians (many), He is knocking
outside the door of their life desiring to come in (Rev 3:18-20).  
And even to them also it is written, "Draw near to God and He will
draw near to you" (Jas 4:7-8).

God has self-control, and He exercises it such that His gentleness
(Gal 5:22-23) does not allow Him to coerce, drive, impel against
someone's will (1Co 13:4-7; Jas 3:17).  Instead He convicts,
persuades, corners, etc.  But if someone remains persistently
unrepentant, then God releases them to this (Ro 1:25-26, 2Th 2:11-
12).

This is the testimony of Scripture.  God loves all, desires none
to sin, has paid the price for all, but only those who will
believe will be saved.

It is neither God's intent that any should sin, or that any should
be lost.  If He desires none to sin, it follows that He desires
none to be lost: If all were not sinning as God desires, then all
would be saved as God desires.  This is a natural progression from
the fact that "God is light and in him is no darkness at all."

  As an outworking of His perfect Nature, God does not
  choose some to be saved and leave others to perish;
  unconditional election of individuals to salvation is
  error.

And here as elsewhere in this text "all" means "all"; there is no
part dark just as there is no one wished lost and no one unpaid for.  "All" is never exclusive in this setting.  Unless as with other Scriptures, as a believer in unconditional predestination, you wish to twist its meaning as Satan does and limit the "all" of "God is light and in him is no darkness at ALL" to mean this must exclude the beginning of evil in the world.  Do you?

  Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.  Every good
  gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes
  down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no
  variation or shadow of turning.
  JAMES 1:16-17 NKJ

So for me, when Jesus said go into all the World and preach the gospel, God wants us to be winning people to God.  We have a vital part of His plan.

Predestination can be summed up in an illustration:  If you took a dog, put him in a cage, and did not feed him for a week, He would be hungry.  Now if you placed two bowls in front of him, one with meat and one with salad, which would he eat?  Of course he would eat the meat.  Why?  Because we know it is the dog's nature to eat meat.  Now does that mean we predestined the dog to eat it?  No the dog choose the meat.  We are a higher intellegence than the dog.  We know how dogs behave.  If we placed a hundred different choices of meat in front of the dog, God would know which one he would eat.  Why?  Because he is God.  The dog still has a choice but God already knows it.

One thing you must remember about predistination.  God is the alpha and omega.  He is both the beginning and the end.  God does not live in time as we do.  God is timeless.  God is living both in creation and in revelation at the same time.  If God is living already in future time, then he already sees what we are going to do.  We still make our own choices, but God sees them already.  So we have both choice and are predestined because God can see it.

Blessings

Answer
Blessings and thank you for your questions.

God has used people for common purpose...e.g. hardening their hearts, how does this fit in?   GE 50:19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.    God uses the evil ways of man to accomplish his purposes.  The people who do evil, no matter what it is, choose to do it.  God in his plan, knows what evil man will do, and compensates for it.  Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

if predestination is explaining god knowing what we are going to choose, then why is the work used at all? is there a better greek word or a more clear definition?  In my belief, I can find no better explaination.  In God's eternity, he knows what we are going to do.  Therefore, it is predestined, because for God it has already happened.



can you explain Romans 9. Again, God chooses to love and have mercy on man.  He chooses some for special purpose.  Why did he love Israel.  Because in Abraham's time, no one was following after God but him.  Because of the faith of Abraham, God choose him and his decendents.  God is God.  He can choose whomever he wishes.  

Blessings