Expert: Marilyn - 12/5/2008

Question
Sorry to pick on you this way, but you often have thoughtful answers, despite my irascible dragony nature.

I find alot of blind Christians in this world who simply cannot address these issues as a holistic sum, these issues that have lingered since the beginning of time.  Please read it though and address the whole content, if it is possible, as not addressing the whole thing never resolves the holistic problem.  I've also found it an abuse of faith to not question these issues as part of faith, when faith is supposed to be believing in Jesus death and ressurection, and not 10,000 additional things under the sun to hide away the sum of human ignornance of God's real nature.

It seems God was bored when He created humans.  The perfect-and-complete-within-only-Himself-God *needed* love, so God created human souls and gave them free-will.  This is because, the infinite power God hit a God-power limitation in that God cannot create love without free-will.  At the same time, that means that the infinite knowledge God knowingly created a being that will always choose to reject God, every last one, as no human is not a sinner, and some will knwoingly reject their ultimate power and ultimate good creator.  And so God is forced to create death, to destroy the fallen souls that reject God, because God has finite persuasive influence with His creation, and are thus not put in His book of Life.  And this is considered intelligent design, on God's part?    God in His infinite knowledge, saw all these things to be, in our future, and said, I don't care about the ramification in what I am creating, as My ends justify My means, even if only a sub-selection of all these things that I created are my children, and even if the other parts of my creation I know will not follow me at all, so then I will destroy that which I created by My Own Hand, as only I have the power to destroy a soul, and not Satan.  So, it seems that God simply wished to create evil and death, as part of the intelligent design, for the love that God so-needed, and the complete-God being an incomplete-God, lacking His creation's love and worship.  Or, perhaps, God simply creates things that He is not ultimately responsible for, that His finite human creation is not really His responibility, to which He gives them a dirty-rags-limited self-responsibility for finite-things that God will eventually have the ultimate in responsibility as no human will surpass God in responsibility or good or power.  And God's ultimate responsibility is to destroy souls from all memories in His body, in order to have only those souls that will commit their eternal love and worship of Himself, as the only product that God was interested in, in the end.  In any event, the infinite perfect God, intellignetly designed the creation of a black hole of sinful flesh inside of His infinite light body, because he was bored and wanted some love and worship from a created thing, and death to that which deviates in His creation, as part of the design.  God's most cold shouldered approach to humanity show itself in His removing of His spirit from humanity, because He lost His infinite patience with His created finite humans, in how He ultimately created them, as no thing is created except through God's power.  ,And God thinks not to teach the weak ones into strength, with His infinite patience, wisdom, and presence.  Think that one through ... God, in an impatient huff for millenia, decided to take His utterly necessary advising spirit away from humans, not too smart, huh?  Satan really got God's goat, there, did He not?  And knowing all things that are created implies, I create the darkness so you can run back to my light, I create the cold and rain, so you can huddle in my home, I create death for those who utterly reject Me?

Alot of this can be rectified by saying that God is not infinitely powerful and knowing, or complete within only Himself, and that God is limited by certain material logistics, like a Hindu God that is part of the guiding hand in an infinitely large fluctuating and physically limiting to God universe, to which He is trying to guide us from tradgedy, as best as anyone can, because even God had to die to help save some, and love cannot exist without death, and so forth.  But so few Christians teach a logically polarized God concept like this premise of finitude in nature.

"LoneRubberDragon"


Answer
Hello Lone Rubber Dragon;

Issue One:  The All-Knowing God.  Are all-knowing and all-seeing a completed future the same thing?  I don't think so.  God knows what's going on everywhere in the universe.  He's in all nows everywhere in the universe.  He created the universe, writing certain laws into its function.  He knows all about how the universe works, all the physics, everything.  He's the first and greatest geologist, biologist, whatever.  I don't believe He sees the future as a done deal.  The future is fluid.  It's subject to change based on human decision.   He knows humans pretty darn well.  He can very accurately predict what you'll do when you finish reading this, if you'll stop reading this in the middle and maximize a browser window you have minimized...He knows if someone's about to call you on his cell phone...but that's just the next minute or two.  What will you be doing a year from now?  He probably has a good idea based on current conditions, but He doesn't know beyond a shadow of a doubt.  The future isn't finished before it happens.  He sees all the probabilities for every human being and every animal and insect.  In that sense He's all knowing, but in the sense of being able to see the future with fixed certainty--no, He doesn't.

He has created rocks in time.  These are prophecies recorded in the Bible.  If He speaks it, it will happen.  When a person applies his faith to receive something, God moves on His behalf and the probabilities reorder themselves accordingly.  Isaiah paid an ailing Hezekiah a visit.  He says, "God says put your affairs in order.  You're dying."  Hezekiah turns his face to the wall and cried out to God.  God stopped Isaiah as he was walking away and sent him back to tell Hezekiah that He's giving him 15 more years.  We make our decisions.  

Now, God can create road blocks and through them encourage us to take a certain path, but He can't force us to do anything.  We choose.  God didn't create human beings to reject Him.  I don't know why He created human beings.  The Bible doesn't really say, though it implies that God wanted a family.  Why did God want a family?  Doesn't say.  God doesn't have to tell us why He does anything.  

Issue 2:  Creates these black holes of human sinfulness. Human beings were not created sinful.  Adam and Eve were perfect, their bodies were designed to last forever.  In fact, I've heard that the human body replaces itself about every 7 years, the brain takes a little longer, but it replaces itself too.  So, why do we age and become decrepit?  Sin.  Adam and Eve were created rulers of the earth, little "g" gods according to the Psalms and Jesus.  Speaking spirits with the same power to speak things into being that God has. It's now thwarted and perverted by sin and often fails due to lack of faith.

God breathed into Adam the breath of lives--plural.  When Adam sinned some of satan's nature entered him and every "breath of life" he carried in his sperm.  We came under satan's over-kingship and God was shut out.  Did God know beyond a shadow of a doubt Adam would sin?  No.  He didn't.  Adam had one rule, 50/50 he'd keep it; 50/50 he'd break it.  But before God created Adam some other things happened.

Satan, originally called "morning star" or Lucifer, was created a cherub.  Ezekiel 1 describes the cherubim.  Ezekiel and Isaiah say he was guardian cherub of Eden, he walked among the fiery stones on the mount of the assembly which is to say, he was a top angel, probably the top ranking angel of Heaven.  He was anointed, the only angel mentioned in the Bible to be anointed.  He got to thinking he was ALL THAT and rebelled against God convincing 1/3 of the angelic population to join in his war to take God's throne away from Him.  Jesus says in Luke He saw satan cast out of Heaven like a bolt of lightning.  He lost the war and became sworn enemy of God.

Did God know Lucifer would rebel?  No, don't think so, though He saw the probability.  God didn't create evil, evil is good twisted beyond recognition.  However, in the sense that if your kids trample your neighbor's geraniums it's your fault, yeah, it's God's fault satan exists.  Angels have free will, they just don't have the right to change their minds.  Hebrews says angels were created servants of God and man, servants don't have the same rights as children.

So, here's satan, once the top angel, now the enemy of God.

Let's say that there's a genetic catastrophe on earth and you're the only male left on the planet.  Once all the women discover you're the only male on the planet, your popularity will instantly soar.  Do those women love you because you're Shawn the awesome dragon or because you're the only man available?  Given you're the only man in the world, how will you know that the babe currently occupying your bed really loves you?  Might sound fine to be the only man in the world, but what if you want true love?

If God wants to create god-class beings who can relate to Him, how's He going to know, to actually give them free will to freely love Him if He doesn't give them a choice?  Well, here's satan, conveniently providing a choice.  You'd think a really-don't-want-to-go-there choice, but a choice for certain, a clear cut choice--completely opposite of God.  

The Bible says Eve was deceived, but Adam had no excuse.  Since Adam carried all the potential breaths of life for everyone who would ever be conceived, why didn't he just push that nasty fruit from her hand?  Don't know, the Bible doesn't say.  Milton, the great poet, theorized that Adam didn't want to live without Eve, so he ate the fruit.  He ate the fruit, disobeyed God, and bam, satan becomes default over-king of humanity and God is on the outside looking in.  Adam's choice--50/50, obey or disobey.

The Bible says that Jesus was the Lamb Slain Before the Foundation of the World.  God and Jesus talked it over.  God said, "Well, if Adam sins are You willing to die for them?"  Jesus thought it over and said, "Yeah, I'll do it."  So they created man and hoped he wouldn't screw it all up.

Issue 3:  God the Cold Shoulder.  God did do something about sin.  He explained to Adam and Eve that if they offered an animal as a substitute, they could sacrifice it and be saved.  This was the stop-gap until God could bring Jesus into the earth, the Final Solution.  He found Abraham who would actually listen to Him and believe Him and through Abraham showed us that He actually can be a Great God, give old people a son and prosper a guy to the point where he could keep his own personal army.  Abraham shows us how to live by faith.  Then God sent His Law through Moses so we'd get the idea that certain things are really a bad idea, which human beings didn't really fully get before.  We tend to have a sliding scale of morality.  Then, He sent Jesus to pay the price for sin, past, present and future; for all who sacrificed animals in the past and for all of us now if we'll say "Jesus is Lord," and believe in our hearts He was raised from the dead.  

Issue 4:  Responsibility.  So, yes, God took responsibility for the whole mess and He's done something about it.  What, you want Him to boss some people around, like maybe Idi Amin or Hitler?  Ah, but do you want Him to boss you around?  Force you to behave?  We usually think the sins we commit aren't that bad.  Why does He have to give everyone free will?  If He's so darned All Powerful, why doesn't He zap these nasty people etc. etc.  You recall, He used to zap people in the OT and now He gets a bad rap for it.  Never mind that those people were into infant sacrifice and making their teenage daughters into whores to supposedly serve or bless some imaginary god.  

Now we're under a thing called "grace," which was purchased by Jesus' Blood which means we have a little more rope, but also God doesn't zap us instantly, but tries to work with us to bring us around.  He's been steadily working with us.  He's managed to get slavery pretty much eradicated, except for Muslim countries, and get women more equality, except for Muslim countries, better rights for kids and prosperity for more people than ever before in history.  Create a democratic republic in the US and so forth and so on.  

Shawn, if you give the ladies free will and another guy happens to show up, someone who was maybe hiding in a cave and managed to escape the whole genetic catastrophe thing, only he's cuter than you are and has a nicer car--now you know who really loves you.  Free will means free will--it means, don't tell people what to do.  God makes some pretty strong suggestions, mind you.  He can create some of those mouse mazes to bring people around to face Him and make a decision and He does it all the time.  He's been doing it in Muslim countries where Muslims are dreaming of Jesus and seeing visions of Him.  Imams have been whining that thousands of Muslims are converting every day.  He did it in my life.  I made some really stupid decisions, I played a role in creating my maze, but He sent just the right book at just the right time to save me and I've never been the same since.

God reaches out to every human being on the planet at some point in their lives, I'm sure multiple times, to see if they'll receive Him as Lord.  Peter clearly says it's not God's will that any perish, but that ALL have eternal life.  But if you give a gal free will, she might fall for that clown with the nicer car and leave you in the dust.  God isn't going to go against my free will, your free will, not even Hitler's free will.  Sorry, not going to happen.  It's a rule He's set for Himself.  You don't really want a law breaking God do you?  If you do, well, there's satan for you, he's busy breaking all God's Laws.

God didn't remove His Spirit per se, but sin separates us.  It's like a garbage pit between us.  Adam made satan over-king, chose that damn garbage pit.  God managed to find people here and there who would actually listen to Him.  There's Job, Jabez, Abraham, the prophets, listening to God and trying to follow Him.  God sent His prophets not just to the Israelites, but to others as well, Jonah and the people of Ninevah for example, so they could find out what was on His Mind.  People usually tried to kill God's prophets because they were busy telling them to straighten up and they didn't want to, but God kept sending them anyway.  Jesus even cracked a joke about it, a Prophet can't die outside of Jerusalem.  Kind of a sick joke, given what He was facing, but hey, at least He had a good attitude.

Because when we receive Jesus as Lord we are IN Him, we can have the Holy Spirit--Jesus has us (our sin) covered.  

God's ultimate responsibility was to deal with sin, fix the problem and woo people to Him so that they might be saved.  You told me a previous time that you were a believer.  Looks like He's still working on you--wooing you--else you wouldn't be fussing with all this.  

You need to read some Ravi Zacharias stuff.  He addresses issues of how God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) compares to other gods and logistics etc.  Also, some of what you're talking about matches up with Paul E. Billheimer's book "Destined for the Throne," which basically, if I remember right--it's been awhile since I read it, says that the earth is a factory and God uses it to make people who will worship Him. The ones who reject Him are just part of the price to get the ones who accept Him.  I don't buy that theory--God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.  Hell was originally created for satan and the rebellious angels, not intended to be inhabited by human beings at all, but those who won't receive Jesus as Lord will end up there with their over-king.

There's just not a neutral position available.  It's not fair, but that's the way it is.  You're either with God or you're with the enemy.  You know what the middle of a war zone is, don't you?  It's no man's land, it's the place where all the bullets fly--that's where those fence sitters and people who think they're neutral are living, right smack in no man's land.  God is God, He's perfect and sin can't exist in His presence, it just sort of burns up like a puff of smoke.  Even if He let people who weren't covered in the Blood into Heaven, they wouldn't last long enough to see the pearly gates.  Besides, He's not going to drag people to Heaven who don't want to go.  If you want to go, then choose Jesus as Lord.  You can't get in on your own terms.  He's God, He sets the terms.  If He didn't He wouldn't be much of a God.

I'm sure you'll write back if I didn't cover something.

Marilyn