Expert: J.M.J. West - 9/18/2008

Question
QUESTION: Is Luke 16:19-31 talking about heaven and hell or it some other place?

Where can/does a person soul and spirt go to after physical death?


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Ecclesiastes, 12:7... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it....

1. Does this mean that the soul will return to the ground?

2.  Does the spirt return right a way?

3.What happens/can happen to the soul when the body dies/and after that?

thank you in advance

Allen


ANSWER: Allen,

Thank you for your questions.

>>Is Luke 16:19-31 talking about heaven and hell or it some other place?<<

In this story, we hear a parable of Lazarus and the rich man (the only named person in a parable, who coincidentally is the name of a friend of Jesus who died and then was resurrected).  

There are a few possibilities for post-life placement within the Judeo-Christian schema:

Heaven: Eternal Blessedness and beatitude (the rich man was obviously not there), and ultimately communion with God and resurrection of the Body (as such, it seems Lazarus was not there either).

Hell: Eternal Self-separation from God.  Clearly Lazarus was not there, and it seems doubtful that the rich man was there, for in hell I it doubtful that we will love or have pity or care for others, but he shows both remorse for his actions and concern for his brothers, hence his request to have Lazarus sent back to them.

Sheol: The Jewish People didn't have a clear revelation on what happened to the body and the soul after death, and so there were a number of theories, one of which was Sheol.  Sheol was the "netherworld" which was itself divided into two parts, the "good" side (aka Abraham's Bosom) and the "bad" side "sheol".  Sheol was essentially the place where souls "waited" (for what, the Jews had no clear answer).  "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Genesis 37:35). Sheol may be personified: Sheol is never satiated (Proverbs 30:20); she "makes wide her throat" (Isaiah 5:14).

Before Christ opened the gates of heaven as he ascended, it seems that our souls sat in a kind of "prison" state, where they may have had some form of awareness outside of space and time.  My best guess is that Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom, and the Rich man in Sheol.  Christ Himself entered Sheol and “preached to the spirits in prison there” (1 Peter 3:18-20) after his crucifixion - and this seems to connote that those in Sheol were not destined to hell (in fact, he preached to "those who were disobedient" in the days of Noah).

Purgatory: After the resurrection of Christ, it seems that the souls of the righteous are now more free to go to heaven (i.e. a dis-embodied, un-resurrected state of being with God in some way), but not all souls will go to heaven immediately.  Some (probably most) need to undergo some form of cleansing.  NOTE: Purgatory would not be a "third place" or an ultimate destination (same with Sheol).

In 1 Cor. 3:10-15 St. Paul speaks of a fire which burns away the “dross” from our foundations, leaving only the good built on the foundation.  There is no loss in heaven, and no salvation from hell, and this is at the end of all things, so it MUST refer to a state of purification.

Likewise, in 2 Tim 1:16-18  St. Paul prays for his recently deceased friend Onesiphorus, precisely because he's assuming that he would benefit from such prayers.  You cannot benefit in hell, and you need no benefit in heaven, so he is clearly praying under the assumption that Onesiphorus is in purgatory.

Moreover, in Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with Satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

It is possible that Lazarus was in heaven, and the rich man in purgatory, but this seems chronologically out of step with the events of salvation history (i.e. such options seem to be open more AFTER Christ ascended)

>>Where can/does a person soul and spirt go to after physical death?<<-

Um...well...see previous answer...

>>Ecclesiastes, 12:7... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.... 1. Does this mean that the soul will return to the ground?<<

No.  The body returns to the ground ("Remember that you are Dust, and to dust you shall return" was the pronouncement on Adam after his transgression).

Also, Ecclesiastes is a very odd book in the bible, written from a very earthly point of view up until the last chapter when it is revealed just what is and isn't "vanity"...

>>2.  Does the spirit return right a way?<<

That seems to be the case, but things get fuzzy when you're dealing with time (generally a physical attribute) and the spiritual realm.

>>3.What happens/can happen to the soul when the body dies/and after that?<<

Ultimately, resurrection and reward for what we've sown in our lives.

Before resurrection, some form of cleansing of our souls seems necessary, for "nothing unclean can enter heaven" (Rev. 22)

...

I hope that helps.  Feel free to ask any follow up questions as they arise!

Peace of Christ,

-J.M.J. West

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear J.M.J. West

some Christian bibles have 66 books in them; other Christian bibles have 73 books in them; other Christian bibles  have different numbers of books in them;

how many different types of Christian bibles are there, and how do they differ by books?

where can i get a complete list of the Christian bibles that are done in English and when they came out?

thank you in advance.

Allen

ANSWER: Allen,

Thanks for the great questions!

I suppose this question comes down to:  Where did we get the Scriptures?

The Old Testament was composed by a number of authors over the course of a great span of time.   Periodically they were added to, when God sent a new prophet, the legitimacy of whom was made manifest by signs.  They were read by the priests at the temple and revered as holy.  

The problem is that the Jews never had a closed canon (a finished set of books) because they were perpetually awaiting new revelation from God.)  So not all Jews had the same canon.  The Sadducees only accepted the Torah (the first 5 books of Moses), others like the Pharisees had more books.  Many in the 1st century included in their list of scriptures what are called by Catholics the Deuterocanonicals:  There are seven books (Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees and Sirach) and portions of Esther and Daniel, which exist in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles, but not the Protestant bibles.  Most of these are believed to have been penned between 500BC and 200BC.  Whether or not a Hebrew Original exists is debatable.

After Christianity burst on the scene and the Romans began to persecute the Jews, they sought to differentiate themselves from this upstart group.  It is this reason that (beginning in Antioch) this new group was called "Christian", to demarcate where the Jewish people ended and this new sect began.  

One problem the 1st century Jewish leaders faced was a massive influx of new "scriptures" from this supposedly aberrant sect.  A Council of Jewish Rabbis in 90 AD at Jamnia sought to settle their canon.  They tossed out these Deuterocanonical books, along with the Christian Scriptures and writings, because they were the writings in use by this new sect.

We know that the first Christians used those books because they were in the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek version of the OT, which the apostles themselves used and quoted from (More than 2/3rds of the NT quotes of OT books are from the Septuagint.  The author of Hebrews (11:35) cites 2 Maccabees 7:1, 7-9)  Periodically debate in the Christian community arose over whether or not these books were inspired, and many Cite St. Jerome as having doubts, but he himself seems to have commented that he didn’t.

"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).

These books were included in every official listing of the Canon of scripture.
1.   Council of Rome in 382
2.   Council of Hippo in 393
3.   Council of Carthage in 397
4.   In 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the canon in a letter to Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse.
5.   Council of Carthage II in 419
6.   II Nicaea (787), which approved the results of the 419 Council of Carthage
7.   Florence (1442),
8.   Trent (1546),
9.   Vatican I (1870), and
10.   Vatican II (1965).

The Reformers of the 16th Century, especially Martin Luther, sought to throw out these books as un-scriptural, based upon their own authority, because they supported key doctrines (like purgatory) that didn't jibe with their own theology.  They also sought to throw out NT books like James and Revelation, but had less luck there.

Those books are what make the difference.

The New Testament is the 27 Books you’re familiar with, written in part by the apostles and those they worked with.  Some of them were accepted almost immediately, others only after some discussion.  Other books were claimed to be scripture by some and had to be prayerfully discerned
  
Altogether these make up the Canon of Scripture:  It is necessary to have an infallible list of books that are scripture.  If we don’t know what books belong, then we may be missing key texts or, worse yet, we may have erroneous books teaching falsehood.

Jesus gave us a Church, an authoritative body, which in turn authored the scriptures and produced the Canon under the guidance of God.

Both Scripture and its Canon is part of a larger encompassing whole called.  Without the decision of the Church, we have no list of what books do and do not belong, and if we do not know what books do and do not belong, we cannot know that we can trust the scriptures to be true.  They might be missing some books which belong, or worse, they might include some books (and thus some teachings) which do not belong there.

So, either all bibles with 66 books (most Protestant bibles) are in fact deficient, missing these books of Scripture put there by the Church in the first centuries of its existence via an infallible decision guided by the Holy Spirit; or all bibles with 66 or 73 books are possibly erroneous because we have no way of knowing what books do and do not belong.

Does that make sense?

If you want a bible with the full set of scriptures, get a "Catholic" bible, or a "Protestant" bible with the "Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha".

Feel free to ask any further questions you might have.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear J. West
If you can check on the web site that i try to help on www.TheChristianCo-Op.com and look at the 3 articles about Bibles; and tell me if there is some things wrong (missing)?
What is wrong with the info on the web site about the Christian Bible?

Thank you in advance.

Allen

Answer
The Site says:
>>Apocrypha Catholic Bibles, old testament has the forgoing 39 books,  plus 7 books; Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabee, 2 Maccabee, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), Baruch,   (thus 46 Books in these Old testament).

Roman Catholic Bibles ( which are also called ; Apocrypha) also has the same 39 books as a basic Bible plus; (The 7 books  Catholic, Apocrypha Bible), Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, the Wisdom of Solomon (also titled Ecclesiasticus), plus it also has; Baruch, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, (the Rest of Esther),The letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, (Additions to Daniel), The Prayer of Manasseh.  (thus 53 books, plus long Esther and long Daniel) Thus;  the Catholic Apocrypha Bible has a old and new testament  has 46 O.T. books and 27 N.T. books, which = 73 books.
The Roman Catholic Apocrypha Bibles, has 53 O.T. books and 27 N.T. books, which =80 books, plus longer versions to Esther and Daniel.<<

There is only one Roman Catholic Bible, and it has 46 OT books.  Those other's listed (eg. Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh) are not books in themselves, but PORTIONS of books (Esther and Daniel).  If you count each fragment as a book, you get 53.  If you don't, 46.  There is no difference between the two except HOW you number them.

The Orthodox do have a few more books, and the canonicity of these is questionable but not settled entirely.  It is possible (but doubtful) that they could be included in the canon - but this is a matter for the successors of the apostles to decide, and not the average Joe.  They would then technically be "Trito-canonicals" (i.e. the Third Canon; "Deuterocanonical" means "second canon")
See also: http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/tritiocanonical.html

Does that help?

Personally I recommend the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (RSV:CE, http://tinyurl.com/3wxn7g) and the New American Bible (NAB, http://tinyurl.com/4j9w98)

Pax Christi,

-J.M.J. West