Expert: Clifford H. Readout, Jr. - 9/8/2008

Question
I just read your article on soul and spirit. I was in harmony with everything you had said until I read your entire conclusion:

"the soul lives forever either in the presence of the Lord, or in the realm of the condemned."

Do you believe that this is to happen immediately when a person dies? if so, which verses support this thought?

If not, please let me know you agree. I know of the verses that support this interpretation.

Sincerely

Gil

Answer
Dear Gil,

Please bear with me for a moment. I will get to the answers to your questions in a moment or two.

You ask: “Do you believe…?”  Your belief and my belief are irrelevant.  It is possible for both of us to believe a lie.  It is important to determine the Biblical truth of the subject.  

You ask: “If not, please let me know you agree.”
Does it matter if I agree or disagree?  What difference would my agreement or disagreement make? Your agreement and my agreement are irrelevant. It is altogether too possible for people to disagree with the truth. It is important to determine the Biblical truth of the subject.

What is it with which you want to know I agree? That the soul at death immediately goes to be with the Lord? Or that there is an undetermined amount of time between death and  entering the presence of the Lord? It seems that you are disagreeing with the statement, “the soul lives forever either in the presence of the Lord, or in the realm of the condemned."

Perhaps you want scriptural evidence for or against “soul sleeping,” the doctrine which teaches that the human soul is either unconscious, asleep, or otherwise suspended until the time of the resurrection.  A summary of some of the verses that deal with that subject follows.

You ask:
“Do you believe that this is to happen immediately when a person dies?”
Apparently, the limitations of “time” become meaningless to the soul once the body has died. I cannot help but wonder if Moses and Elijah exhibited any signs of the effects or limits of time when they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-5 and Mark 9:22-8)?  So “immediately” is really an meaningless word in this context.  However, from the perspective of those still living, I would have to conclude, from the evidence I will offer below, that there is no significant amount of time that passes between death and the soul’s awareness of either the Lord’s presence, or its torment.

There is a text that includes a specific reference to subjective time related to death:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he was going to die that very day, just as Christ was, but that he would be “with” Him in paradise that very day. [The language, “with me” is significant, and while there is neither time or space in this answer to include the scriptural facts about them, I will simply say that being “with Jesus” includes your being His guest and under His authority and protection.]  The time reference is unmistakable, and does not give us any indication that there is a delay between the time of death and the time of awareness of being in the Lord’s presence. “Paradise” is defined in Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14, and also 2 Corinthians 12:4.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man, which will be considered below, also makes no allowance for a significant passage of subjective time between death and awareness, neither does the text give any indication of either man “awaking” after a period of unconsciousness or sleep.

You ask:
“if so, which verses support this thought?”

Here are a few relevant Scriptures and facts established by them:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 describes the entirely of the human existence on the earth as being spirit, and soul and body, but Genesis 2:7 really gives a definition of what a man is.  While many interpret the text as saying “man became a living soul,” the Hebrew does not express that at all.  Rather it says that when God blew the breath of life into the body made from the dust of the ground man became, and that man is a living soul.  That is, man is not the body, neither is man the breath of life, but man is the living soul which results from God blowing the breath of life into the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Job 19:25 and other texts assure us that only what goes into the grave is what comes out.  No text even hints that souls go to the grave, only the bodies.  Matthew 27:52 is pretty specific in identifying what arises from the grave, and it is not “the saints” or “the souls of the saints,” but the bodies of the saints.

In Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38 (look at the context, too) the Lord makes a very strong point that while it is irrefutable that the bodies of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were dead, that the men, themselves, were alive.  Matthew 10:28 fully demonstrates that while many have power to kill the body, only God has the power to kill both body and soul in Hell (Gehenna, and the “second death”).  Clearly, the soul does not die when the body does, in fact, unless God kills it (and no text says he will kill souls) it will live forever somewhere.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (context) is equally clear that resurrection applies to bodies, not souls, in fact, it dictates that we understand that it be the same bodies which are buried (sown, planted) that are resurrected, but in a changed state.  The creating of entirely new bodies would not be a resurrection, but a re-creation.  John 2:18-22 reveals even more.  Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:27 assures us that the body of Jesus Christ went into the grave, but did not experience the normal decay process.  It also dictates that His soul did not go into the grave, but into Hades/Sheol.

None of these texts accommodates the idea of a time of unconsciousness or sleep for the soul.

The only textual evidence relating to the state of the soul when it is in Hades is Luke 16’s testimony about Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The rich man died and went to Hades (the Greek word translated "hell" in this text), a place of fire and torment.  There is no mention of his sleeping any amount of time.  Lazarus died and was taken to a place of comfort and "good things." Notice that there could have been no significant amount of time passed between the time of the rich man’s death and his awareness, because no significant time had passed for his five brothers who were still living.

Individuals in both places were aware of their surroundings, and of those of the other place: "they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."  It seems obvious that some who were in the place of comfort would willingly go to give aid to those in Hades, and those in Hades would willingly move to the place of comfort.  It is also evident that the two places are removed from each other by a great gulf which is impassable (fixed).  Revelation 20:14 informs us that Hades will eventually be put into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna, or the place people think of by the name "Hell").  So Hades is not the permanent location of the unsaved dead.

It is unlikely that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, because Jesus Christ actually names one of the characters, something not done in any parable.  I ask the question, “Was there really a beggar named Lazarus?  If not, why did Jesus say there was?  Why didn’t He simply say, “There was a certain rich man and a beggar,” in the same manner He did in every other parable?  Regardless, parable or prophecy, the Lord never used falsehood to illustrate truth. And in His recounting of the story, souls in Hades and the other place, where Abraham was, were all conscious of their own state, and that of those in the other place.

Let’s consider John 5:28-30, often used to support the idea that the souls are unconscious or asleep until the time of the resurrection.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Context is vital (as it almost always is) to understanding the text.  “Any text without a context is a pretext.”  And the context is entirely focused on Christ’s authority to Judge.  Resurrection is a secondary issue, and not the subject of the passage.  Nevertheless, what it says about resurrection is true.
:24 speaks of those who are physically alive *hearing His word* and thus having passed from being “dead in sin” to being “alive in Christ.”
:28 speaks of dead bodies *hearing his voice* and coming out of the grave as a result.  It is clear that resurrection includes the reuniting of soul and body for the specific purpose of judgment.  There are two possible results: a resurrection to spiritual life, or a resurrection to damnation.
Parallels are found in Revelation 20:11-15; Daniel 12:2; Acts 24:15; and 1 Corinthians 15.  Romans 8:11 is very clear about what gets raised up and quickened (made alive), and it is not the soul, but the mortal body.  “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

The issue at hand in John 5 is not resurrection, but rather Christ’s authority to Judge.  And He is assuring the hearers that He does have the power and authority to Judge.  So much so, that those people who are alive, but dead in sin, who hear and believe him, pass from death to being alive in Him.  So much more so, that his voice has the power to raise from the grave the bodies of those who have died, and the mere hearing of His command to arise will bring them up.  All will come up because of the power of the command, but some of the bodies will be resurrected to life and others to judgment, and the One whose voice has the power to resurrect them will be the Judge.

Scripture often speaks of death as sleep, but it never speaks of the soul as being dead in that manner.  The death of the soul is a spiritual matter, and does not result in its cessation or corruption, but rather its separation from the possibility of personal relationship with the Creator/Saviour.

There are other texts that relate to this subject. Here are two often ignored:
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Philippians 1:21-24 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Paul was speaking of living and dying.  While we live in this body we are absent from the Lord, but when we die we are present with Him.  That death does not take a Christian into unconsciousness or sleep is demonstrated by Paul's desire to depart and be with Christ, not depart to take a nap until resurrection.  Notice also that there is no time delay between absence from the body and being present with the Lord.

There are texts which make reference to sleep, but in each case the text speaks to the state of the fleshly body, not of the soul.  The body sleeps, awaiting its resurrection, the spirit returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), but the soul, lives on in awareness, either in the presence of the Lord, or in Hades, until the resurrections of the bodies, when both shall be cast into Hell, or taken into New Jerusalem and the New Earth.

There is another text which ought to be included in a study of the state of the soul after death.  It is a challenging text, but if treated with the respect God’s Word demands, reveals related truth.  That text is 1 Samuel 28, the record of King Saul’s encounter with the woman at Endor who had a familiar spirit.  It is necessary to understand that the narrator of God’s Word is God.  He occasionally quotes the words of the characters in the story, even those of fools and enemies, but when He is not quoting, He is telling us what actually happened.  (Because of my own pre-Christian history involved with familiar spirits, I find this event less confounding than it seems to be to some scholars.)

The Narrator does not lie, but tells the facts.  
1 Samuel 28:12 “…the woman saw Samuel…”
1 Samuel 28:15  “And Samuel said to Saul,”
1 Samuel 28:16  “Then said Samuel…”
1 Samuel 28:19 “…to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me…”

I must make sure to state for the record that the woman did not “bring up Samuel.” She invoked the familiar spirit, and was completely surprised and fearful at the result!  She did not expect Samuel, and when he appeared, she knew she was exposed and in mortal peril.  She also lied to Saul about what she saw, and about her role in the event.  The fact is that she had no power to “bring up” anything but the demon spirit to which she was in bondage.  This incident is the record of Saul using the last possible means he had to provoke God into responding to him, the blasphemy of witchcraft.  He did it, not because he believed such things had  actual power, but because he knew it would surely provoke the Lord to anger and response.

The application of this event to the subject of the state of the soul after death is clear.  Samuel’s body was dead and in the grave, but Samuel himself was not asleep. (The word “disquieted” does not mean “awakened,” but it does mean “agitated or provoked.”  Neither would any human being or demon have the power to wake a soul if it were either unconscious or sleeping according to the plan and purpose of God.

Consider also that this earthly existence is subject to conditions and limitations which do not apply to the spiritual existence.  As God is not subject to space time limitations, I suspect that the human afterlife also is freed from such limitations.  God liveth forever and ever, but that does not mean that He experiences a never ending progression of seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, etc.  The souls of men also endure forever.  2 Corinthians 4:18 – 5:10 not only confirms that death separates the body from the soul, but that they are reunited at the resurrection for the purpose of the soul being judged for the deeds done in the body.  It also refers to the promise that Christians shall also received changed bodies:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

In conclusion, the evidence of Scripture does not support the idea that there is a period of time during which the soul is either unconscious or asleep between death and the resurrection of the body.  Every text which has been used to support that idea can be shown to apply only to that which dies, and souls do not die.  All of the textual evidence is that the soul is conscious, and does not lose its consciousness at the time of the death of the body, and is “immediately” (as much as time references can be relevant and applied after death) taken to either the presence of the Lord or to a place of torment.

I hope this helps.

Yours for truth,

CR