Expert: Messianic Rabbi Yochanan Levine - 12/31/2009

Question
QUESTION: hi there,did the trinity create the heavens and the earth?did the trinity create man?did the trinity show themselves to moses in the burning bush?did the trinity die for us?is there three thrones in heaven,are we going to stand before three judges?is the trinity going to return for their bride,so on and so on,Please scripture only not your thoughts.

ANSWER: Hi George,

The Torah says:

Isaiah 42:8  I am YHVH [the LORD]: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Sounds clear to me.

The Nicean Creed (read it here: http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm) says that there is only one God but that that one God exists in three co-equal co-eternal Persons in ways that are beyond human comprehension:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father....

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified....

The teaching therefore is not in three Gods with three thrones etc. but in one God with one Throne Who is knowable in three distinct "Persons." Attempts to explain this dogma further are futile as the teachings defies human reason. It is not that the one God "manifests" in three forms (say as in the Hindu teaching of Brahma, Visnu and Siva), not that God sometimes appears in different forms depending on the need.... but that the One God is eternally and indivisibly Father (YHVH) Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: One God in three Persons.

Personally, I do not believe the Trinity nor the deity of Jesus are scriptural teachings. The God of Israel is One God and Y'shua ben Miriam (Jesus son of Mary) is His servant and our master teacher and mediator under the B'rit Hadashah (New Covenant). This teaching has been accepted by Believers since the beginning of the Way movement and theologically is known as Arianism -- after Bishop Arius who was condemned for propounding the biblical doctrine). Biblically the Holy Spirit is not a separate "person" but God's Holy presence.

An example that this is so is clear from the conception of Y'shua. The text says the Holy Spirit overshadowed and impregnated Mary but the Creed says the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son." Biblically God's presence overshadowed her not a separate "Person."

I do understand the doctrine and there are verses in the Bible that can be used to support it, however the overall teaching of Y'shua was based on the Torah and the heart of Abraham's revelation is the absolute and unequivocal Oneness of God.

After the Diaspora (70 CE) what John and Y'shua referred to as the Nicolaitane Heresy (Rev. chapters 2 and 3 etc.) entered the Way Movement. During the second through fourth centuries several false doctrines altered the essential "Jewishness" of its teachings. Paul and others also referenced this looming threat (Titus 2:3, II Pet 23:1 etc.). We can discuss this if you wish, I discuss this portion of Church history in detail on my websites (including http://allfaith.com/prophecy, http://allfaith.com/Religions/Noahide)

If you wish to discuss this further do write back.

~ John of AllFaith

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: thank you for that,but i am more confused you say that the father,son and the  Holy spirit are co-equal; in everything i take it,then why in your explaining did you mention Jesus as being a servant,making him subservient to the Father does not seem equal to me,and John 4:24 says God is a spirit,does that mean there are two Holy Spirits,please explain.

Answer
Sorry to confuse you George.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is confusing because it defies human logic. In our experience 1 + 1 + 1 always equal 3, not 1. In this doctrine it equals 1.

Most Christians accept the Trinity doctrine as being true, I do not. Historically many Christians have not.

As I said in my first reply: Personally, I do not believe the Trinity nor the deity of Jesus are scriptural teachings.

The widely accepted Trinity doctrine is that God is One and yet exists in three co-equal, co-eternal forms.

When verses that reference Jesus as God's subordinate are brought up -- and there are many of them --the answer is usually either that it is a sacred mystery (to be accepted on faith) or that Jesus temporarily became lesser than the Father aspect in the Incarnation (Hebrews 2:7 is often cited for this). Again, that does not make rational sense but that is the teaching.

To be clear,
I believe God is One as the Torah teaches. He is the God of Israel, known in the Torah as YHVH.

I believe Jesus (Y'shua) is not God, that he is God's holy servant and that he will, in the future, return and fulfill the Messianic prophecies and become King of Israel and Overlord of the Earth during the coming Thousand Year Kingdom.

I believe the teaching that the Holy Spirit is a "Person" of a Trinity is a completely made up doctrine by the Vatican with no biblical support. Biblical references to the Holy Spirit are speaking about God's Presence, not a separate "Person." I believe the Bible is clear on this.

Most Christian denominations require their members to accept the Trinity doctrine.

Hope this clarifies my view,
Each of us must determine what we believe.

~ John of AllFaith