Expert: Brenda Martin - 4/20/2009

Question
QUESTION: Hi Brenda,
I was looking at various responses you gave in the past and came across one regarding hell.  You claimed that hell doesn't exist and that it was created by the church to "keep people in check" and that when we die, we simply turn back to dust and cease to exist.  If that's the case, then what's the explanation for scripture that talks about everlasting torment?  Here are some verses that I came across:

Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.

Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

The reaction to life after death according to scripture is not a non-reaction, but instead a tormented one:

Matthew 8:12: "...there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:42: "... there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:50: " there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:30: "... there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, to emphasize that the punishment in Hell lasts forever:

Matthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

Mark 9:43-48: "...it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched"

Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

You pointed out some scriptures from the OT that speak of man returning to dust when he dies.  This is true, but isn't the final revelation of God, through Jesus Christ, even more authoritative and clear and precise concerning eternal things?  So when Jesus speaks of everlasting punishment, shouldn't we be concerned?

Just some things I'm wondering about... thanks again for your time.

ANSWER: HI Michael, I have answered each scripture individually--

MATTHEW 8:12-- Remember that we are studying a parable. If the “wheat” and the “weeds” are SYMBOLIC, so are the “fiery furnace,” the “weeping” and the ‘gnashing of teeth.’

MATTHEW 13:42, 50-- Fire was used in Bible times as the most thorough means of destruction. Hence, Jesus used fire to ILLUSTRATE the complete destruction of the wicked.

MATT 25:30, 41, 46-- The ILLUSTRATION of the Talents- the sluggish “evil slave” class specialize upon their personal salvation instead of the interests of God’s Kingdom, Their symbolic talent has been taken away from them and has been given to the class that has shown the willingness to use that talent during the remaining part of this “conclusion of the system of things.”

MARK 9:43-48— Jesus used Gehenna as REPRESENTATIVE of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. (Mt 10:28; Lu 12:4, 5) The scribes and Pharisees as a wicked class were denounced as ‘subjects for Gehenna.’ (Mt 23:13-15, 33) To avoid such destruction, Jesus’ followers were to get rid of anything causing spiritual stumbling, the ‘cutting off of a hand or foot’ and the ‘tearing out of an eye’ FIGURATIVELY representing their deadening of these body members with reference to sin.—Mt 18:9; Mr 9:43-47; Col 3:5; compare Mt 5:27-30.

LUKE 16:24-- Jesus is relating an ILLUSTRATION about a rich man and a poor beggar named Lazarus; The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favoured with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment. Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men’s circumstances. Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic.

REVELATION 14:11-- this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—that continues forever, not the fiery torment. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa•nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’ (Held under restraint forever, in eternal death)

REVELATION 20:13-15-- Is this the hellfire Christendom speaks about? No, for in the preceding verse, we read: “Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Revelation 20:14,) If hell is cast into the lake of fire, the lake cannot itself be hellfire. Moreover, death is not something concrete that can be picked up and hurled somewhere. So the lake of fire must be symbolic. Of what? The Bible says: “This is the second death.” When death and Hades are hurled into the lake of fire, they “die,” cease to exist. Similarly, rebellious humans who end up there die, or cease to exist. This, though, is the second death, without hope of a resurrection.

REVELATION 21:8-- A judgment of eternal destruction has been determined for Satan, his demons, the symbolic “wild beast” and “false prophet,” and even death and Hades. (Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) All of these are consigned to “the lake of fire,” that is, they are everlastingly destroyed.

"THE OT THAT SPEAK OF MAN RETURNING TO DUST WHEN HE DIES, BUT ISN'T THE FINAL REVELATION OF GOD, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, EVEN MORE AUTHORITATIVE AND CLEAR AND PRECISE CONCERNING ETERNAL THINGS?"  

Jesus Christ himself likened death, not to some form of consciousness, but to sleep. (John 11:11-14)

Most religions teach that the soul or spirit is some invisible part of a human that survives the death of the physical body. By means of this teaching, many of these religions exploit their members, charging money to pray for departed souls. However, the Bible teaches a different doctrine. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Jesus taught that the dead will be resurrected—an unnecessary action if humans had an immortal soul. (John 11:11-25)

"SO WHEN JESUS SPEAKS OF EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, SHOULDN'T WE BE CONCERNED?"

IF he did yes, but he doesn’t :¬) the picture of a God who consigns millions to eternal torment is far removed from the revelation of God’s love in Christ.”

What was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire? He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31.
Think about this. If the idea of roasting people in fire had never come into God’s heart, does it seem reasonable that he created a fiery hell for those who do not serve him? The Bible says, “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would a loving God really torment people forever? Would you do so?

Millions are learning the truth about Hell, here is one such person’s words—

“Kathleen (a drug addict) “I learned that there is no burning hell. The Scriptural evidence made perfect sense,” said Kathleen. “Knowing that I would not have to burn in hell was a tremendous relief.” But she also learned of God’s promise that humans could live forever on an earth cleansed of wickedness. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; Luke 23:43) “I now had a real hope—to live forever in Paradise!” she exclaimed.

Would Kathleen be able to stop abusing drugs without the threat of a fiery hell hanging over her? She related: “When I had a strong craving for drugs, I would pray, begging God for help. I thought of his view of such defiling habits, and I did not want to disappoint him. He answered my prayers.” (2 Corinthians 7:1) This fear of displeasing God enabled Kathleen to break free from her addictions.

Yes, cultivating love for God and a healthy fear of him—not fear of torment in hell—can motivate us to do God’s will in order to enjoy lasting happiness.”

All the best
Brenda






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Brenda,

You make some good arguments.  I think we both agree that in the big picture, the righteous in God's sight will be with Him forever.  Where we differ is in the literal or figurative interpretation of the scriptural references to hell.  Yes, when Jesus spoke the parables, He's making illustrations, but I believe illustrations that speak of a real event.  Whether or not the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable or a real event, Jesus was speaking about the realities of eternal reward or punishment.  If the rich man simply ceases to exist, why would Jesus speak this parable to us?  It seems a bit deceptive of Jesus to speak of eternal torment if it's not real.  It makes we wonder if there's anything else that's figurative.  Perhaps heaven?  Perhaps the resurrection?  

Anyway if there are other insights that you have regarding this I would appreciate it.  Thanks very much again for your response.  

Michael

ANSWER: HI Michael you said--"THE RIGHTEOUS IN GOD'S SIGHT WILL BE WITH HIM FOREVER"

While it’s true that the bible speaks of a number who go to heaven when they die & these ones will literally be with “God forever”; it also speaks of the vast majority of “righteous” staying right here on the earth—

God’s purpose has always been for the earth to be filled with happy, healthy people. The Bible says that “God planted a garden in Eden” and that he “made to grow . . . every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food.” After God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, He put them in that lovely home and told them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28; 2:8, 9, 15) So it was God’s purpose that humans have children, extend the boundaries of that garden home earth wide, and take care of the animals.

God says that he “did not create [the earth] simply for nothing” but “formed it even to be inhabited.” (Isaiah 45:18) for how long did he want them to live here? The Bible answers:-

“The righteous themselves will possess the EARTH, and they will reside FOREVER upon it.”—Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4.

So then a small group will go to heaven to “rule over the earth” while the majority will live under that rule forever (rev 5; 9, 10) Matthew 6;9,10)

"IF THE RICH MAN SIMPLY CEASES TO EXIST, WHY WOULD JESUS SPEAK THIS PARABLE TO US?"

The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that; 1. those enjoying divine favour could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham;2.  That the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; 3.  That a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible also. As further evidence that this is not a literal account but is an illustration, consider this: Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on?

So then why did Jesus mention this parable & what was he speaking about?—

The rich man in the illustration stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God’s Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they came into the favour of the Greater Abraham, God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favour. Being cast off, they suffered “torments” when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.


IT SEEMS A BIT DECEPTIVE OF JESUS TO SPEAK OF ETERNAL TORMENT IF IT'S NOT REAL.

But he doesn’t speak of “eternal torment” in the sense you mean :¬)

The word “torment” is from the Greek word “basanos” & means ‘JAILER” so Jesus was saying the wicked will be eternally “Jailed” in other words; dead forever with no hope of a resurrection.

Often, one falsehood leads to another, and that is true of the immortal-soul teaching that came about in the 4th century, it opened the way for the pagan notion of eternal torment in a fiery hell. Despite the Bible plainly stating that “the wages sin pays is death”—not eternal torment. (Romans 6:23) those in hell are dead, ‘asleep,’ as Jesus said.—Revelation 20:13.

IT MAKES WE WONDER IF THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S FIGURATIVE.  PERHAPS HEAVEN?  PERHAPS THE RESURRECTION?

No it’s quite easy really; let me illustrate it this way--

If you picked up a single piece of a jigsaw could you see what the whole picture will be from that one piece? No, but if you assembled the straight edges of a jigsaw, you then start to see what it could be, then bit by bit as you complete the rest of the jigsaw a clear picture emerges.

Well it’s the same with the bible, it is a picture made up of 66 little books, if you take a random scripture you don’t know if its figurative, symbolic or literal, but as you gather knowledge of the bible & begin to see the whole picture or story, then you see clearly which parts are literal & which parts are not. The bible is harmonious throughout; its message from Genesis to Revelation is “Paradise Lost to Paradise regained” Once you know the story it’s then easy to see what parts are what.

Oh btw Heaven & Resurrection are literal :¬)

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Brenda



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Brenda,

You've really got me pondering these things now.  Very interesting perspective.  I'll probably have an opportunity to share what you've shared with someone else.  I want to see what they think.  I have another question.  If there are only a few who will make it to heaven, I assume the 144,000 that's mentioned in Revelation, how can anyone know if they are going to see God (what's the criteria)?  Will there actually be a separation of "classes" -- one group who will be intimately face-to-face with God, and one who won't?  

Answer
HI Michael you said--"HOW CAN ANYONE KNOW IF THEY ARE GOING TO SEE GOD (WHAT'S THE CRITERIA)?"

The witness of God’s spirit convinces anointed Christians that they have heavenly prospects. “You received a spirit of adoption as sons,” wrote Paul, “by which spirit we cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (Romans 8:15-17)

Under the holy spirit’s influence, the spirit, or dominant attitude, of anointed ones impels them to apply to themselves what the Scriptures say about Jehovah’s spiritual children. (1 John 3:2) God’s spirit gives them a sense of son-ship toward him and engenders within them a unique hope. (Galatians 4:6, 7) By means of his spirit, God has produced within them such a strong heavenly hope that they are willing to sacrifice all earthly attachments and prospects.—2 Corinthians 5:1-5, 8; 2 Peter 1:13, 14.

Some of the “criteria” would be--those who are subjects of God’s Kingdom use and honour God’s name, Jehovah, just as did Jesus. (John 17:26) They obey Jesus’ command to teach others about “this good news of the kingdom.” (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) And they show genuine love for one another.—John 13:35.

"WILL THERE ACTUALLY BE A SEPARATION OF "CLASSES" -- ONE GROUP WHO WILL BE INTIMATELY FACE-TO-FACE WITH GOD, AND ONE WHO WON'T?"

That separation has always been in place, it is not a future thing that will happen-- let me explain; when Jesus came to the earth he started to collect together those who would go to heaven to be rulers with him in his kingdom, so the first chosen were his apostles to whom he called a “little flock” & told them they would be with him in heaven. For a time this was the only hope open to mankind, that of going to heaven; then when that number was “filled” those with an earthly hope began to be collected in.

Had Adam & Eve NOT sinned there would be no such “separation” as all mankind would have lived on the earth, however that wasn’t the case, so God introduced this heavenly arrangement to bring about his original purpose.

God did not change his purpose for the earth and mankind on it after Adam started the human race down the path of sin and death. His purpose from the beginning was to have an earth-wide paradise filled with happy, healthy people, and that purpose still stands. The only new thing that God introduced was his arrangement for a new government to carry out his purpose. His Son, Jesus Christ, is the main ruler in this government, and 144,000 persons will be taken from among humankind to rule in heaven with him.—Revelation 7:4.

In the “new earth” the vast majority of faithful mankind will live forever under this heavenly government, we will not “see God” with the literal eye, no, but that is not needed to experience the blessings that God will bring. (Rev 21; 3, 4) These ones with a heavenly hope will “see God” as they are transformed into spirit beings to live in heaven.

But as Jesus said we are all “one flock under one shepherd” ( john 10; 16)

I look forward to hearing from you

Brenda