Expert: Dennis Herman - 5/4/2009

Question
QUESTION: Hello.  Do any Christian scholars believe they know what are represented by the five loaves, seven loaves, and twelve baskets of fragments which Jesus gave to his disciples to distribute to the multitude?  thank you.

ANSWER: Great question.  Is there an answer?  I have never seen an explanation.  I have never studied this acted parable.  

God speaks to us through His word.  This is an acted parable which means it is an event that really happened but there is a deep underlying spiritual meaning to the event.  You can always tell when an event is an acted parable when something in that event is out of the ordinary.  And this fits the description.

It is always vital to look at the exact text you are studying.  This is the only way to ensure you are using the correct key words.  Otherwise you are only getting an opinion, in most cases will turn out to be misleading.

KJV Matthew 14:14-23
14.  And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
15.  And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
16.  But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.
17.  And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
18.  He said, Bring them hither to me.
19.  And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
20.  And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
21.  And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
22.  And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
23.  And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

KJV Mark 6:34-45
34.  And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
35.  And when the day was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time is far passed:
36.  Send them away, that they may go into the country round about, and into the villages, and buy themselves bread: for they have nothing to eat.
37.  He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat?
38.  He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when they knew, they say, Five, and two fishes.
39.  And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass.
40.  And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.
41.  And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all.
42.  And they did all eat, and were filled.
43.  And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes.
44.  And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
45.  And straightway he constrained his disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side before unto Bethsaida, while he sent away the people.

KJV Mark 8:1-10
1.  In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
2.  I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:
3.  And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.
4.  And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
5.  And he asked them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven.
6.  And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.
7.  And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before them.
8.  So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
9.  And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
10.  And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha.

KJV Mark 8:18-21
18.  Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19.  When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20.  And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21.  And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

KJV Luke 9:12-18
12.  And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we are here in a desert place.
13.  But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.
14.  For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
15.  And they did so, and made them all sit down.
16.  Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
17.  And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.
18.  And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

It seems you are only asking about the baskets of fragments.  These are interesting text.  The first thing that jumps out at me is the events following the supper.  At times the events leading to and following an acted parable help shed additional light.  I have seen studies on the ship and wind, Jesus walking on water.  To give you a quick run down. Ship = church, wind and water = trails and false teaching.  In this parable the people in the ship did not recognize Jesus.

Back to the fragments in the basket.  To study this acted parable you would have to identify some of the key words.  Notice the key words given in Luke 9, loaves, fishes, fragments and baskets.  Also notice these are the same key words used in the other books.  This is strange to have so many stories agree with the exact same key words.

I can tell you bread symbolizes the word of God.  I am not sure what loaves represent.  I think I tried studying it and ran into problems.  I could not find a link to loaves and bread in the same verse.  Maybe you can.

To interpret this verse you will have to look up the key words and compare them to other verses having the same key words to find the spiritual meaning. Sorry, this is one I have not studied and I would prefer to teach others to study rather than supply all the answers myself.  This is the way the Holy Spirit prefers to work.  Here are some guides you can use.

How to conduct a word study.
http://hystar.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/seven-steps-to-doing-your-own-bible-studi


Bible Dictionary with verses.  This may contain a few words you need to look up.
http://hystar.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/bible-dictionary/

You may find other useful information on this site.  Let me know how what you find.  I love hearing back from people when they discover what secrets God has chosen to share with them.  

Here is a similar study on water and bread.
http://hystar.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/waters-and-bread-proverbs-9/

Let me know if you need any help.  I know you can unlock this mystery with just a little faith.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: in my study I noticed that in each of these cases Jesus gave the loaves (rolls) to his disciples who then distributed to the crowds.  I believe most miss this point.
 OK can I speak freely?  Long ago I studied much-the Spirit led me to some answers.  I believe I got proud of my knowledge.  Guess what?  I have spent years learning humility the hard way.  I need to help others understand more, but most simply can't or won't listen.  This Book is my love and obsession, it will immerse me again.
 Back to loaves.  Have you considered  bread as a roll shape?  Yehezkel, eat this roll!  John, eat this roll!  More explicitly, Jesus explains exactly what is meant in the passage you included from Mark when he tells his disciples (who had forgotten to take bread) to beware of the leaven (teaching, doctrine) of Pharisees and scribes. hint-5 rolls of Moses, book of 12 minor prophets, 5k men 1st time, 4k men 2nd time .....too much for this venue.  Please tell me you can step back and look at these acted parables and understand the Lord blessed the loaves (rolls), gave them to his disciples, and THEN the disciples distributed the bread to all who were hungry for His Word-they were filled (Is.55). All that was left was gathered that nothing be lost. These acts did not happen (on the spiritual level) in an afternoon, but throughout the whole period recorded from Moses onward. I'm sure you are busy so I will stop now.  Thank you for your time, sir.

ANSWER: I can relate to the way you feel.  We hold the treasures of the universe in our hands and the world will not listen.  I also know how Satan first attacks us.  Telling us this is for us to share any way we choose.  Satan attempts to make the word of God a choice for us, like he did in the garden.  Remember God spoke the tree into existence and personally warned Adam.  

Here is an answer to your question about the loaves being passed.  The Bible does not tell us God told Eve.  I assume Adam told Eve.  Even before sin God put a part of the work of salvation in our hands.  

I have a study on leaven.  I'm not sure it is correct but this is all I could find on the subject.  It was on the parable of the kingdom of God is like leaven hidden in 3 measures of meal or bread.  I can't find it now, it may be on the lap top.  The only thing I could find leaven representing is the doctrine of the Pharisees.  That does not fit the parable.  I could not find a link. One may exist.  I looked at the process of leaven and found out it produces alcohol.  I assume the bread without the alcohol, eaten on the Passover represents Christ when He refused the wine on the cross.

I'm not sure if that helps you.  I think you are looking for a quick answer to the meaning of the number of people and the left over baskets.

I do not put a lot of stock in numbers as I have not been able to prove any of the popular symbols from the Bible.  Except for the number 4 which represents a link between earth and Heaven.  Most people look at these numbers as holding some key and get side tracked by using man made symbols.

I have not studied a number of key words in this parable but I can share what I see in the physical.  Jesus blesses the food and has the disciples give it to the people, His followers.  The left over baskets will always be there.  If there is still food left over Jesus can always make more.  This may represent exactly what we are doing, always finding more food in the word of God.

I hope this helps.  The key words should reveal much more.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Mr. Herman:  my understanding in this case is that Pharisee leaven is that which is added to the original meal, dough, bread.  We can recall that the Holy Days used unleavened bread, and also that the Pharisees were the proponents of the "oral tradition" of added restrictive laws over and above the actual law given.  I believe this tradition of men is what Jesus was referring to here, for his disciples to be wary of.  This fits well with all of Jesus' recorded teaching, as in "You lawyers lay heavy burdens on men's backs, yet will not lift a finger to remove them (by deleting those binding traditions which did not come from God)."
  My actual hope is that someone will see that these are recorded this way for us to discover-yet I remember Jesus' words that not all are able to receive-for God gives different gifts to different members of the church.  And the goal is to spread the news of salvation of our souls through faith in Jesus.  thanks for corresponding with me.  God Bless.

Answer
So let me get this straight.  I suspect you think it was wrong for the Pharisees to put their own interpretation on the law.  I would agree with that statement 100%. Now ask yourself, where do all of the contentions between churches and denominations come from?  I think a major cause of the lack of unity between churches is based on the interpretations they put on the Bible.  How do they interpret the Bible?  Any way they choose.  

I would tend to agree with you.  The leaven could very well represent the laws of the Pharisees.  I would expect to find additional text supporting that concept.  But I can not find any supporting text.

Now let's look at the facts of the parable.  

KJV Mark 8:15
15.  And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Did Herod enact laws and punishments upon the Hebrews?  Yes, it still fits.

The key word here would be leaven.  So look up all the verses that contain the word leaven.  Are there any verses telling us leaven is the self proclaimed laws of the Pharisees?  No there is not a single verse.  But there is one other verse to consider.

KJV Luke 13:21
21.  It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Now we have 2 parables with the word leaven and they seem to have a totally  opposite context.  Remember  this book was written by God and everything must agree.

As you pray on the verses and look them over one more time, it hits you.

KJV Exodus 34:18
18.  The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Leaven is mentioned in two events, the Passover and the sacrifice. Okay what do these 2 events have in common?  They both point to Jesus and His sacrifice!  

Now that we have solved that mystery let's write out our findings so we can see if it fits the context.

Beware the Passover sacrifice of Jesus by the Pharisees and Herod.  

So what do you think?  

Let's try another one.

It is like the Sacrifice of Jesus, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was covered by the sacrifice of Jesus.

Now find the meaning for meal and see how that translates.