Expert: Scott Talbot - 9/11/2010

Question
QUESTION: Hello Scott,
I wanted to Thank You personally for your guidance and assistance regarding
the Bible study group I was involved in. I was going to do it in a follow up but
it would not let me.

I had a feeling that something didn't feel right with this group and God has
been guiding me as you can see. I needed some outside expert help and felt
comfortable with your profile.  "You indeed" gave me the scripture info I
needed to bolster what I already suspected and felt in my heart. That this
group is on the wrong path. Your help is appreciated !!

You are a wonderful example of a Christian doing good works through your
dedication to this site. And more importantly you do this in the blessed name
of Jesus "lord and saviour".

Thanks again,
Ron

* Not sure if your interested since you already know how these groups
function. BUT, there are a couple of odd clues that took place as well during
the last two times we met for Bible study. I can share them with you if it is of
interest. It may help others who perhaps are dealing with the same situation.
Rest assured though that your guidance will keep me away from the harm the
deceptive tactics they try to push.

ANSWER: Hi Ron,

Thank you for going out of your way to tell me how you feel. It is a pleasure to help.

Yes, I would be interested in hearing about the "odd clues" you mentioned.

Scott

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Scott,
I was going to tell you about odd clues I noticed during these Bible study
meetings. I have explained to Steve that I dont feel they are teaching scripture
properly and will not be attending. Afterwards, I recieved another email from
him that I feel I you should be aware of. Again he is responding in reference
to my previous email concerning Salvation and Grace.
Your thoughts ?

Thanks Scott for your input,
Ron

Hi Ron
When you first brought this up, it made me think about the grace word  
subject more intently and it's Biblical meaning. I have not before since I have
met you. So when I started briefly looking into what this grace was I started
asking myself some questions. I like writing down as many questions I
possibly can about something I do not know and seeing if I can find the
scriptures that answer them.

So the first thing I asked myself was, Grace from what? We are saved by grace
and not by works. Its a gift of God and not of ourselves.

The context for this Scripture is Ephesians (1:15-2:10) Take note that in
verses 1-3 it refers to a lot of past tense ways. They were formally this or
they use to do that. So in this case, they were different. It talks about being
made alive in Christ - raised up with Him (Christ).

Then after it talks about being saved by grace and not of WORKS, it goes right
after then into talking about how we were God's workmanship and how we
were created in Christ for GOOD WORKS.  These are not the works that we are
use to. Remember, in the foundations, its Repentance from DEAD WORKS.
Well these people were created in Christ to do GOOD WORKS. No longer DEAD
WORKS. This is similar to Matthew 7 were it talks about how a GOOD tree can
not produce BAD fruit. And a BAD tree can not produce GOOD fruit. So
something has to change for that tree to bear GOOD fruit.

If you read on in Ephesians 2:11-22 it talks about what these people use to
be. They were Gentiles (NOT JEWS). They were refereed to as those
Uncircumcised. Something that you had to do to be a Jew. Well Paul referees
to them as circumcised in the flesh by mans hands. These people that he was
talking to now were circumcised without human hands but actually by Christ.
And it was in the heart and not the flesh like these Jews. And in fact it goes
on to say that before they were saved by Grace, they were separated from
Christ.

Other Scriptures that I found about Grace - Works were in Romans 11:6 (1
-10) - Says that grace is no longer on the basis of works. And that this was
by God's choice.

Acts 15:11 (1-21) - Saved through the Grace of the Lord.
This mentions almost the same thing as in Ephesians. But the interesting
thing to note who it is talking to who. The context begins with JEWS believing
that these Gentiles who were believing in Jesus had to be physically
circumcised in the flesh and follow the commandments of Moses. They had to
follow the Law to be saved. But Peter goes on to say that we believe that we
are saved through the Grace of our Lord and not by works. Well what he was
talking about was the works of the Law. If you read in Romans chapter 3-8 or
so, it talks all about the Law. I wrote the Scriptures you sent me this morning
down and some of them are in a few of those chapters in Romans. But a lot of
it talks on the Law. The Law that came through Moses. That if people did not
keep this, they would perish. It talks about this a lot when Moses was giving
the people the Law.

Romans 2:12 (12-16) - Talks about how those who sinned without the Law
perished and those who sinned under the law were judged by it. Even if you
are a Gentile, the law is still in your heart. For example, if you go to another
country that do not practice the Law or 10 commandments, they still have
Laws on not stealing and murder. Its still in their heart. So even if they still
commit sin, they are under it and guilty of it.

But the interesting thing that I found was in Romans 6:14 (12-14) - You are
not under the law but under grace, ONLY if sin is not master over you.
Romans 6:1-11 talks about how we can die to sin and live to God. Just like
Christ did. And in the same way, we are no longer slaves to sin and its no
longer master over us. And according to verse 14, if we are not under grace,
then we are under the law. And the only way to be under grace is to no longer
be a slave to sin.

So that is why in Ephesians 2:1-3 it was all past tense for them. They were
formally this way, they acted according to the lust of their flesh and thoughts
and did these things. But they did what is in Romans 6 and we know this
because the outcome is exactly the same.

ANSWER: Thanks for sharing that, Ron.

To be honest, I don't understand what he is trying to say. I'm not sure what his point is. But it does sound a bit odd.

What was said when you told them you weren't planning on continuing on with the study?

Scott

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Scott,
When I told Steve I was not going to be a part of the Bible study he was
gracious as he {they} always are. But I still recieve emails. I think his latest
email shows his weakness in the word and the Bible or it is a dceptive tactic
as you said. This recent email comes after the last one where I pionted out
scripture I had looked up in the Bible myself and I also shared the ones you
had mentioned. This has obviously exposed a weakness. And like all cults or
sects "which I believe this to be" they {he} will try to be even more persuasive
as you so rightly pionted out.

Please understand that even after three times together I got to know these
people. It wasn't all Bible study, we just talked among ourselves about all
topics and thier was a sense of comaderie / fellowship apart from the Bible
study. BUT, I started to notice things. I wanted to disscuss the Biblical
menaing of grace and was completely shot down. They explained that we
needed to keep on track {lesson plan} etc. It was not this way at the beggining
so it really got me thinking. ALSO, Steve is NOT the real spokesperson.
Although he is allowed to be "while" Karl I believe is the real head of this
group. Karl is the oldest with a wife 12 years younger which in itself isn't a
bad thing. But research tells diffirent in cults. Each time at Bible study I would
observe Karl. If Steve seemed to get off track a little Karl would make hand
and eye gestures {nothing verbal} BUT, I happened to catch this out of the
corner of my eye and it finally dawned on me. Karl is really in charge. He sits
back and observes. However, he has read scripture and disscussed also.
Yet another time an odd thing I observed.
They had a person show up {Griffin} Grif for short  who knows most in the
group except for a couple of us myself included. I wanted to get to know him
{Grif} a little. I asked him what he did for work and  before he answered me
he looked straight at Karl, then finally answered in short that he was retired.
Another red flag, He was asking Karl for permission in my opinion from what I
observed. Also, I used the bathroom once and it smelled of strong perfume /
scent. I tend to be suspicious in nature and perhaps it means nothing. But the
internet on cults / religious groups say they use oils perfumes and scents as
a form of blessing before or during fellowship gatherings.

The last time I was there I wanted to disscuss baptism. For your info, Steve
and I have differences about baptism. Once again Steve was cut short by Karl
with a non verbal gesture of his hands. Steve and the others are very cognant
of Karl. It took three times for me to start to notice. What makes it hard is if
you take the Bible out of the picture they are fun and quite normal simple
people from all walks of life. I have gotten to know.

God wanted me to try this and God has given me insight enough to use my
suspicions and cautious nature to be skeptical. And I felt I needed to get
extera help and opinions from someone else who is more Biblically sound.
Which brought me to you. The first time was nice. Very informal with an open
forum disscussion. Yet, each time after it became more structured and rigid.
Not what I am looking for and it started to not feel right.
Scott, I pray about this alot. These are nice human beings {people} but I
unfortnately got caught up with the wrong group. And then my mind wants to
work against myself. I start thinking, maybe your being to suspicious or
perhaps what you think you saw was something totally different etc. Hence
the continue prayer and talking to God and asking for his help and guidance.
I have my answer and that is why I will not participate with this group again.

In fact, it is another life lesson. It has taught me to be ever cautious in
recognizing false teaching. The next step is responding to Steve's emails.
I have told him exactly how I feel and did it with scripture straight from the
Bible regarding grace & repentance and how they should work together in
harmony. But they are a works based religion and I am finding the hard way
that they do not believe in Ephesians 2:8-9 along with all the other scripture
you had mentioned. And Steve's view on baptism differs. They are off track
and not on the right path and I think they hate that I know this.
I just hope that they aren't really a Biblical cover for a satanic cult. My mind is
fearful of this due to possible spells they may place since I rejected them. I
need God's protection !!!!

Sorry for the long winded responce.
Thank You,
Ron

Answer
Ron,

Yes, your observations have raised some legitimate red flags. The very fact that you have felt uncomfortable--like something wasn't quite right--is very telling.

Whether it falls into the category of a "cult," or it's some other form of false teaching, the point is that they aren't using the Scriptures as their final authority. At the very least, they do not have an accurate understanding of the Scriptures, and they are twisting it to make it fit their theology.

It's hard to take a stand against false teaching when the people are so nice. And there's certainly nothing wrong for caring about them as individuals. But it seems that they are victims of their own belief system. And regardless of their intentions (their motives could be good, though misdirected), they are making others the victims of their erroneous belief system. They are replacing the truth about God and His ways with their own man-made beliefs. Rather than drawing people to God, they are leading people away from God using a counterfeit belief system.

A common trait of false teachers is their need for control. This is evident in the control Karl seems to have over the group. Also, their insistence of staying on their topic rather than having healthy, open dialogue demonstrates that they're controlling the direction of the teaching.

You mentioned that you have felt a bit of fear due to possible spells or whatever. Your fears may be unfounded. However, it's always good to have a healthy level of fear and awareness about false teaching, understanding that, ultimately, Satan is behind it. Keep in mind Ephesians 6:10-18, and know that our reliance on God and the "weapons" He provides in the face of spiritual warfare, can protect us from evil and its effects.

Scott