Expert: Scott Talbot - 1/26/2011

Question
QUESTION: Scott,
I had to resubmit a new subject because the website indicated ‘too many follow-ups’. I have been really in deep thought over this: how can someone stand in a whole assembly of people and lie and say that God called them to come and serve Him: aren’t they afraid of God’s judgment? Why would they announce that God spoke to them to do all these things (forsake their homes, wives, family members, parents, occupations, educational degrees, etc) when the only time these were done were during the era of Christ’s disciples? Didn’t the disciples follow Him out of faith, believing that He was the Messiah; God had essentially preordained the 12 disciples (even Judas who was to betray Him) --- that’s why they followed him out of obligation, right? So don’t we take the same act of discipleship today by having faith in Jesus as the Messiah, the Christ?? But whose voice are these ministers listening to? This is the million-dollar question. I have really been thinking: so you say that if they are not lying and thinking that God actually spoke to them (audible voices or through visions and dreams____ in fact I read that the minister who started the church claims that Jesus gave him a vision; that He had a personal encounter with Jesus; that He had a vision of Christ which caused him to repent and start the ministry years later…….) who then is ‘speaking’ to these people? A demon, false angel, or an evil spirit? If I make a statement for example and say to someone that I am almost positive that I heard something, it is also possible that I was either delirious or delusional at that point in time and that I am hearing things…but if I also actually heard an audible voice…wait a minute Scott: God doesn’t talk to people audibly anymore…nor does He cause people to repent through visions….the latter would go against the Bible because according to the Word of God we are to physically repent, confess, and forsake the sins that we committed before coming to Christ. Isn’t that why we have the Holy Spirit now as believers because it is the Spirit of God leading, guiding, and directing us? Just like in my case, the Holy Spirit has been heavily convicting me about this church. The last time I am convinced that God spoke to someone audibly is when I read the Bible (last person: John in the Book of Revelation. He saw Jesus but didn’t see his face because I think the Scriptures says his face was shining and his hair as white as wool. So he didn’t even see his face. Paul heard a voice speak to him, and a glorious light during his conversion but didn’t see a face. But I am not convinced that God ‘shows’ himself to people like that anymore. These people seem like they are trying to act SUPERSPIRITUAL to say the least. This other stuff just makes me puzzled and perplexed. Like you said to me in your e-mail: God would not tell them to do those things because this is not contained in the Scriptures. So back to my question: if they are not lying, then they are deceived…who then is speaking to them?? Spirits of the dead, an actual demonic spirit, or false angel appearing in the form of God? What is it?? I need to know...this is very serious.
Danielle

Oh P.S. by the way you are right about the guilt issue in the response that you gave me (the statement that you made at the end of your e-mail: <Yes, you will be made to feel guilty for doing this. Guilt is a very effective way of manipulating people, and I'm sure they'll try to use this on you. But don't let them control you with guilt. Leave, find another church, and you will welcome the refreshing change of getting out from under their teaching>.) Well, guess what? The ministers are already making me feel guilty by saying that if I leave the church that I will not receive any blessings from God; neither will I receive any further blessings if I decide to attend church elsewhere. Is this true? Why are they saying these things? Is salvation tied to a particular church? Is salvation tied to a church according to the Word of God? Is there any Scriptures which says that I will be removed from God’s blessings if I sit out and don’t attend a church for a while if I feel that something is not right? A church is a body of believers but I am beginning to question whether these ministers are really Christians. Okay. Please let me know….thank you.

ANSWER: Hi Danielle,

Let's take a look at your first question. Why would these men teach things that are so blatantly wrong?

Well, there are a number of possible answers to that. First, they may have been deceived into thinking that what they're teaching is actually true. Whether you want to call it brainwashing, indoctrination, or just gullibility, these men may have come to believe that this is what God wants. One reason is that it probably FEELS spiritual. It's so easy to substitute man's rules for God's principles. Following a list of rules is easy. But growing spiritually--that's challenging stuff!

Another reason may be poor training in the Scriptures.

Still another may be the possibility that they are not born again. According to I Corinthians 2, the natural man cannot understand the things of God. He needs the indwelling Holy Spirit to open his eyes to understand truth.

Satan is a master deceiver. We're engaged in a spiritual battle. One of Satan's greatest tricks is to offer a convincing counterfeit to the truth by disguising it with a great deal of truth. The more it looks like the real thing, the harder it is to discern.

Question #2:  Is salvation tied to a particular church? Will you be on the "outs" with God if you leave their church? I've heard this argument so many times. They believe that they are the path to God. Their way is the only right way. Every one else is wrong. Theirs is the only approved church. These are typical manipulation tactics, designed to make you feel guilty and keep you under their control.

Danielle, not only will God not frown on your escaping this legalistic church, but He will direct you into an environment that is more healthy, spiritually.

Scott

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Scott,
I am terribly sorry to bother you again. And I hope that you can sincerely forgive me. I really pray that you can forgive me. But how is it that I’ve looked at almost every Protestant Christian denomination there is out there and their doctrines are similar except this church? For example, their doctrine book teaches that one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit only when they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. They say that the believer is truly saved with the evidence of speaking in tongues. But is that what is demonstrated in the Bible?? What about when they mandate that Christian women are not allowed by God to wear jewelry or paint their nails because they claim that that’s what God mandates as holiness and separation from the world? What about statements like: water baptism confirms the remission of sins? How is that possible? That sound like they are doing a baptism for the remission of sins…like a John the Baptism baptism, and other doctrines which don’t match the Bible, or that it’s not an ‘issue’ discussed in the Bible. Another example is they say that the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit and teach that the born-again Christian must go through 2 washings --- the blood of Jesus and water baptism. I’ve heard one of the members pray pleading the blood of Jesus, applying it over her cars, house, children, her whole body, her workstation? Where is that taught in the Bible? Somehow I am led also to believe from what my spirit tells me that they do not believe that Christ was and has always been eternal and co-equal with God. When you review their doctrines, you can deduct that somehow they view Christ as rather a created being who then got filled with the Holy Spirit of God after (or during baptism). They teach that new earth will be for the saved, new heaven is for Old Testament saints, New Jerusalem is for the overcomers (believers), and Zion is for the full-time consecrated servants of God….it is almost like they are suggesting that Zion will be only for them. If new earth has the saved, won’t it also include the believers (why does there have to be a distinction between those that will inhabit the new earth and it s new dimensions and those that will inhabit New Jerusalem. Aren’t those the same people; the saved and the believers?)My whole point is they stress this water baptism and baptism in the Holy Spirit so much, saying that a member doesn’t actually quite become a member of the Body of Christ UNTIL they are water baptized. But isn’t by the Holy Spirit that we are all baptized into one body according to 1 Corinthians 12?  The same Holy Spirit that we are supposed to receive upon salvation? Yet they don’t believe that one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon receiving salvation. You mentioned that perhaps they are not born-again. But doesn’t the saved individual need to be born-again to enter into the kingdom of God. When I think of entering into the kingdom of God I consider the Gentiles, Greeks, and all of us as well, apart from the Jews, God’s original chosen people because we are now participants of God’s eternal plan of salvation. So if they are not born-again, doesn’t this mean that they are not saved and are essentially unbelievers?
If they don’t believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (upon salvation, and by faith upon believing in Christ) how then do they go to preach about Baptism in the Holy Spirit, how is that possible? Isn’t that a deceit too?? And isn’t it proof that they don’t truly believe in Christ as the Incarnate?
What about the tongues that they speak Scott? It’s never translated, or interpreted rather, and there is never any prophecy. So can Satan mimic tongues?
Please look at my reasonings here, and please help me out just one final last time….if I were not concerned, then this means that I am neglecting what I feel the Holy Spirit of God is telling me. Can you help answer these questions? I will not bother you again.

But I can assure you that I will never set foot in that building again. Never.
Danielle

Answer
Hi Danielle,

I am not able to pinpoint your exact question, but I can tell you are quite confused. And I understand that, because it is clear that these people are not teaching sound doctrine, but something far different than what God intended.

The fact that you are bothered by these doctrinal errors demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is tugging at your heart. It doesn't take a seminary education to let you know that someone is teaching the wrong thing.

So why would some who claim to know Christ teach such things that are contrary to Scripture? Perhaps they have been indoctrinated by others, and they actually have come to believe it is true. Satan is good at deceiving people, and his most effective tool is to mix a little bit of error with a lot of truth. So, at first glance, what they're teaching may sound plausible. But your gut reaction and the inner work of the Holy Spirit is showing you that it is not true.

So many people get mixed up in the idea that God is looking for a religious practice in our lives, when what He really wants is a personal relationship. It's so easy to turn Christianity into a system of rules and regulations. It's also easy to control and manipulate others by promoting such practices. Such heresy was evident during the time of Christ with the Pharisees, and it's still alive and well today ... unfortunately.

Rather than trying to understand it, perhaps it's enough to know that error exists, and that we all need to defend ourselves and others from it. And, in your case, probably the best way to do this is to remove yourself from it and find a more wholesome atmosphere where you can learn and grow and be encouraged the way Christ intended.

Scott