Expert: Tom Smith - 10/18/2011

Question
QUESTION: Dear Tom

Holy greetings to you. I write concerning the nature of God, particularly where the Godhead is concerned as this is quite a controversial topic which seems not to have an answer, but the truth of it is in the written word.
Christianity in general defines the one true God as three persons, yet in more than one place in the book of Isaiah God is an absolute and unitary one, for example in chapter 44:6 He says, 'besides me there is no God'. What is your take on a verse like this? Thanks in anticipation of your reply.

Yours truly
David

ANSWER: David,

This is such a broad topic. I have discussed this with many people. Often people think as I once did that scripture does not have a lot to say to support the concept of the trinity, but having studied it much over the past several years, I am amazed at how much scripture has to say about the trinitarian nature of God. Many people think that this comes only from one verse in the New Testament, but I have offered to go only to the Old Testament to many people to study what it says about God's nature, because I think that the Old Testament may in fact have much more to say about the trinitarian nature of God.

Let's look at the example that you gave:

Isa 44:6-7
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. 7 And who can proclaim as I do?
NKJV

Let's take this one part at a time, because there is so much in this verse:

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,

Let’s see what scripture has to say about the identities of the King of Israel and the Lord:

King of Israel: The King of Israel? Scripture does not record this as a reference to God other than here. King of Israel refers only to the historical kings of Israel and to Jesus Christ himself.

The Lord: The Lord refers to God, as shown at the end of the line. So this says that God is the King of Israel. None of the ordinary human kings of Israel are God, so this can only have one of two meanings - either Jesus is God, or that God the Father is proclaiming himself as King of Israel, even though it would not be consistent with the rest of scripture.

The next line goes on to say “And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts”. Clearly, this is speaking of a different person or second person because of the phrase "and His Redeemer".

Who is the Redeemer? That is Jesus. I think that we all can agree that the Redeemer is Jesus.

Who is the Lord of Hosts, according to scripture?

1 Sam 17:45-46
But I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.
NKJV

So Jesus, the Lord of Hosts is God.

This is only one example, but scripture only records the Lord of Hosts to be God. Thus the Redeemer is the Lord of Hosts (God), or in fact since the Redeemer is Jesus, this verse says that Jesus (Redeemer) is God (Lord of Hosts).

Let’s read on further:

'I am the First and I am the Last;

First thing to note in this phrase is that we have two persons speaking with one voice, and as a single person. God and Jesus say together, in the singular, "I am the First and the Last.". Now we have God saying that he is the first and the last. This phrase “The First and the Last” is found four other places in scripture, all in the book of Revelation, for example:

Rev 1:10-11
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,"
NKJV

In all 4 times in the book of Revelation, this phrase is spoken by Jesus. This confirms the fact that Yahweh (god the Father) and Jesus are one and the same. Now, we are near the end. The last line is:

Besides Me there is no God.
7 And who can proclaim as I do?
NKJV

Now, remember above where it said "and" and appeared to be speaking of two persons? Now these two persons again speak as one and say, "...besides me there is no God". We see Jesus and God represented in this verse, and in three different ways these verses tell us that Jesus is God, and then at the end, the two speak with one voice and proclaim themselves to be the one true God.

It is clear that the Son (Jesus) and the Father are two persons even though we see that they are both the one God. For example at the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three distinct entities, and yet all are one God. English does not always express things as clearly as they are expressed in the original languages. For example, when we see verses such as Deut 6:4 which proclaim one God, the word which is translated "one" means a "unity", or more clearly, a single entity comprised of more than one part. For example, such a word might be used to describe one crowd - more than one person, but all part of a single unit, all together.

Thus we have "one" God, and that God is a unity. Here is an excerpt from document on my website written by a friend:

-----------------
“Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one..”

“Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”

The word Echod or one means unity.

“Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

“Ezra 2:64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore…”

The Jewish people translate this word as unity.

“I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no Unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, who was, is and is to come.” Daily Prayer Book, Dr. A. Th. Philips, Hebrew Publishing Company. 77-79 Delancey Street New York, (no date of Publication given) Page 165.

“He is one, and there is no Unity like unto His Unity; Inconceivable is He, and unending in His Unity. “ Ibid. page 17.
-----------------------

I hope that this helps.

Tom
http://discern.ca


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks much for your exposition on the scripture in question, where there is no God beside Him in Isaiah. But, there is something of concern here which  have observed, for you mentioned the verse as implying two persons speaking with one voice. If so be the case, then the 'I' could not possibly apply to each, for each saying 'I' would infer that beside Him(each of the two) is no God, and this in itself is contradictory. Would not the God in Isaiah 44:6 instead declare, 'besides Us there is no God'? Now, my analysis of Isaiah 44:6, finds the King of Israel and the Redeemer to be the same person, for the 'his' in the 'his redeemer' refers to Israel and not the God. It stands to reason therefore, that his(Israel's redeemer) and the King of Israel are one and the same, well, according to how I see the scriptures. Now, there is one in the NT who told Jesus, Thou art the Christ, thou art the King of Israel. Now sir, if Jesus is the King of Israel, before and during the incarnation, yet the Father back then in Isaiah is the King of Israel, then unless your position concludes Israel having two divine Kings, then it is not logical that there is a two-person inference in Isaiah 44:6. Can you therefore use your position to explain why Jesus in the NT is not only the redeemer but the King of Israel? Thanks again as I await your reply. The Lord's richest blessings be with you.

David

ANSWER: First let me go back to one point that I made and that is that God is referred to in scripture as a unity rather than a singular. A unity is a single entity composed of more than one. Deut 6:4 would make no sense otherwise. Can you imagine someone announcing to the whole nation that God is one, when they all knew that from the very start. But the prophet here announces excitedly to all the nation top hear - listen to this grand announcement - God is a UNITY! Now that is news. That was not stated previously, though there is evidence right from Genesis, for example when God says:

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
NKJV

Why did God call himself "us" (elohim) when elohu is the singular and could have been used instead?

Now to your point on Is 44:6. Since God is a unity, I can refer to God and yet cover both the Father and the Son. Just as we are made in God's image and are body, soul and spirit, and "I" refers to us collectively.

In Isaiah 48:16,we read:

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

Note that it is a third person who is speaking, since the Lord God, and His spirit, identified as two separate persons, sent the third person. Going on to the next verse, we see more about this third person:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, NKJV

He is the Redeemer (Jesus), and he the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and is God. It is interesting to note that in verse 17, when he says "I am the Lord", the word Lord is “YHWH” in the original language, therefore this third person is YHWH, our Redeemer. Here you have Jesus claiming to be YHWH God and explaining the trinity in two short verses.

Let’s move on to a couple of other passages in the Old Testament, which show Jesus to be God.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Zech 12:10
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. NKJV

Note that the speaker in this case as identified in Zech 12:1 is the God:

Zech 12:1
12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: NKJV

Note that the word “Lord” here in Hebrew is the word “YHWH” who says that He was pierced. When was YHWH pierced? When Jesus was crucified.

Just one last comment - if you wish to debate, this is not the proper forum. If I sense that this is heading towards a debate, then I will suggest thyat it be moved to a proper forum for debating.

Tom
http://discern.ca

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: In the first place, Israel was surrounded by idol worshipping nations all of which worshipped many gods, so in protecting Israel from such evil influence Moses announces the true God by saying, Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord, and this distinguishes this true God from other gods, so nothing in the 'one' indicates anything of a plural nation. Furthermore, 'one' in the solitary or unipersonal sense, still speaks of unity. We often have a misconception of unity, where we think it always infers more than one person of God, for the expression with God really means a unity of His divine attributes.
going to Gen 1:26, how do you reconcile the Us and Our of verse 26 with the His and He of verse 27? Is it that the singular and plural pronouns are numerically defined the same way and inferring more than one person? now, the concept of the Us and Our inferring two or more persons must address certain questions as, How many persons of God was Adam previleged to see? Did he ever see God as three persons in the garden of Eden? How do the angels see this same God? Is it a matter that for some strange reason the angels see Him as three while man sees this same God in a unipersonal and solitary appearance? See Isaiah 6 briefly, and please explain the Us in verse 8, and see how many sits on the throne in heaven.
Speaking of God and His Spirit, in the first place, proper foundation becomes important here, for is it a matter that God and His Spirit are two persons when the bible says God is a Spirit. God is a Spirit and this Spirit who God is, is the Spirit of God. That verse speaks of God in His operational manifestation, according to how I see the verse, and is expressed as God and His Spirit. Now, taking that verse at face-value, where God and His Spirit are two persons, leads to another question: Is it a matter that the Godhead comprises of more than one divine omnipresent Spirit.
I break at this point. Be blessed always in Jesus' name. I await your reply.

David

Answer
The sense of the Hear O Israel is more like "Attention everyone - I have an important announcement" - not so much like "Just a reminder that God is not like the others". We do find the latter elsewhere in scripture, but not announced like this because they are reminders of known facts.

There are two words in Hebrew for one, one which means a singularity and the other is a unity. If this were the only place we found such a concept maybe one could question this as you have, but one cannot take a verse out of context of the whole of scripture, which brings us to the next point.

Gen 1:26 does not stand alone. To the best of my knowledge, nowhere in scripture is the singular - elohu- used to describe God. Always Elohim. Yet throughout scripture we are told God is one (unity) God. We know both are true - God is a plurality who is also just one. No other like Him. And yes, He is spoken of as one God, and yet three persons. Is this concept easily understood? No, but then again how are we, just His creation expected to fully comprehend the majesty and magnitude of an infinite almighty being who is, as we find in scripture, like no other.

If we say that God must be a being whose nature we can fully comprehend and explain, then He would be a being at our level. He isn't. We do not fully comprehend His creation - the magnitude and majesty of the universe beyond ours, or even the creation at the microscopic level, and yet somehow we think that we ought to be able to fully comprehend the nature of the creator of this incredible universe? We are left with having to take God's word at face value - He is one God and yet three persons. And these three persons are distinct - for example we find scripture says that Adam walked with God, Moses saw God's back, and many places in scripture men saw the Angel of the Lord which scripture says was also God. Yet we find in John 1:18 that no one has seen God at any time - so there is a person of God who cannot be seen and a person of God who has been seen throughout our history.

We also see that the Holy Spirit is unique in that Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is said in scripture to be the unforgivable sin, and yet blasphemy of God the Father and of Jesus can be forgiven (Luke 12:10 for example).

Now, as I said earlier, if this appeared to be gaining the tone of a debate, we would need to move it and in my view you have gone beyond asking questions and are presenting your answers in challenge, not as questions. Sometimes this can be a fine line, but it is pretty clear that you hold an opposing view and are challenging rather than asking. I am by no means opposed to a further discussion on this matter, but this is not the proper forum for such a discussion or debate.

If you wish to carry it further, please go to http://discern.ca where you can find my email address and contact me that way and we can decide how best to continue this discussion.

Tom
http://discern.ca