Expert: Scott Talbot - 11/14/2011

Question
QUESTION: So you seem to stand firm on having eternal certainty. When I hear people say that they are guaranteed eternal life and can not lose it, it worries me. For one it sounds very proud and haughty and two where exactly does the fear of the Lord come in place with knowing you have and can never lose eternal salvation?

Take a child for instance. The dad says to him son I love you and there is nothing you can do to lose that love. So the kid goes out and causes havoc; gets in fights, goes to parties and gets drunk and does all sorts of drugs, and sleeps around. Then the son comes home tells the dad he is sorry and then goes out the next day and does it all again. Comes back home slaps his dad in the face and the dad just smiles at him and gives him a big hug and says oh son you are so wonderful welcome home.
Does this sound reasonable? NO!
Now I know you will say a true Christian won't act this way but sadly enough there are a lot of "Christians" out there who do act this way. Why do you think this is?
If a kid has free reign to do whatever he wants and knows there will never be a consequence, do you think he is going to act like a little angel? I highly doubt it, as we can see clearly today what happens to kids who have free reign it is quite evident no fear = no obedience.
Now put this analogy to the Christian life. Christians everywhere no matter what you do you have eternal security... Hmmm given human nature I bet you can put two and two together and see where that will lead.
Now I know you bring up John 10 which says that "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
See the thing people don't realize is it says "AND NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND" This mean nobody can take eternal life away from you but it does not mean that you can't mess it up yourself.
Scriptures to back that up?
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For in the case of those who have one been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame"
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? "

Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."

Now do you agree that these scriptures are very evident that there can come a point you can lose your salvation? I'm not talking about other people taking it from you but you actually not walking in a righteous manner and living out the deeds of the flesh? (Gal 5:21)

Now don't get me wrong God is merciful and full of grace. But like Paul said in Romans when he asked them "what shall we say then, should we continue in sin so that grace may increase? MAY IT NEVER BE"

we as followers of Christ need to walk in a manner worthy of the calling and "work out our own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING" and you can't do that with an attitude of "no matter what I do I can never lose my salvation"

Would you agree or disagree?

ANSWER: Hi Joe,

It's nice to hear from you. I always enjoy talking about the Bible. What better topic can two people discuss?

I welcome your thoughts on eternal security, and I am glad for the opportunity to discuss this with you.

Yes, I stand firm on the doctrine of eternal security. Let me share a few passages that explain this doctrine.

John 5:24:  "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Eternal life is received at the time of salvation. If one could lose his salvation, it would not be eternal life, but rather temporary. Crossing over from death to life makes it clear that a judicial change has taken place.

I John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death." Again, when one is saved, he passes from death to life.

Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, ...." No condemnation means no condemnation. Ever.

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." Never perish. Never. And no one means no one--not even yourself.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Salvation is God's doing, not ours. We do not save ourselves, nor can we keep ourselves saved. To say that we can means that we are taking credit for our own salvation.

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, ...." Again, we have nothing to do with our own salvation--nothing to do with GETTING saved, and nothing to do with STAYING saved.

Let me use an analogy. Suppose I gave you a $500,000 house as a free gift. It's yours. You move in, and, about a month later, you receive a bill from me for $2,000. You call me and complain, explaining that I gave the house to you as a gift. I explain that I did just that. There was no cost for you to receive the house. However, I'm charging you a monthly fee of $2,000 to CONTINUE LIVING in the house.

You would likely respond by telling me that, if it was a free gift, you should not be charged, either to receive the house, or to KEEP the house. Charging you to STAY there is a condition that removes the element of "free gift" from the equation.

Here's my point. You may agree that salvation is a free gift. One cannot do anything to earn it. But, if one claims that he can lose his salvation, then he is stating that, while salvation is free to RECEIVE, one still has to pay to KEEP it. In other words, if we have to "work" to keep our salvation, that's like paying for it after the fact. We cannot work to earn our salvation, and we cannot work to keep our salvation. In both cases, it's a free gift--totally and completely free, without strings or conditions.

This sounds almost too good to be true. In fact, some might respond by saying, "Hey, if God has released me from condemnation and has removed the guilt of my sin--past, present, and future--then what does it matter if I go out and sin and do whatever I want?

This is exactly the question Paul asks in Romans 6:1:  "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

To understand this verse in its context, go back and read Romans 5:12-21. In that passage, Paul explains that salvation is a free gift of God's grace--that works (either prior to or after salvation) do nothing to merit our salvation. Basically, he makes the case for eternal security. But he anticipates the question: So, is it OK to go ahead and sin then?

The obvious answer is NO! (See Romans 6:2-23) Paul explains that, while grace covers all sin--past, present, and future--and works can neither earn or keep our salvation, there are still some very good reasons to not sin. These include the freedom to live un-burdened by sin, the gratitude of being delivered from sin and its curse, the aspiration of being molded into the image of Christ, avoidance of the negative consequences of sin, the power to live above a life of sin, etc. Paul's point is that eternal security should not be used as an excuse to sin. But he still drives home the point that salvation has delivered us from the guilt and condemnation of all sin.

You see, this argument is theoretical only. In the real world, I have yet to meet a Christian who has adopted the attitude that says, "Oh, goody, now that I'm saved, and God cannot send me to hell, I can do whatever I want!" No, to the contrary, most Christians I've met so value their salvation, and are so grateful to God for His mercy and grace, that they are motivated to live a life that honors God.

Have you ever watched the movie, Trading Places, with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd? The basic premise is that Randolph and Mortimer Duke (the rich guys) take a homeless guy off the street (Billy Ray Valentine, played by Eddie Murphy) and one of their successful employees (Louis Winthorpe III, played by Day Aykroyd), and switch their stations in life. They put Louis out on the street, and they place Billy Ray in the lap of luxury. There's a scene in which they bring Billy Ray into what used to be Louis' home and tell him it's all his. Billy Ray responds with suspicion, and then he begins taking certain items (like a very expensive vase) and throws them on the floor, breaking them into a thousand pieces. He was testing the Dukes by seeing what their reaction would be when he broke the things that were given to him. He was surprised to find that they weren't upset ... because they really were his! As a result, he actually did have the freedom to trash the property ... because it was all his property! When it finally dawned on him that it was his, he decided to treat his gift with respect, rather than to trash it.

This illustrates the gift of salvation one receives when placing his faith in Christ. It's a free gift. Yes, he has the right to trash it! But, when he realizes the value of the gift he has received, he will likely choose to treat the gift with respect and appreciation.

Now, let me address some of your specific questions: (I will show my responses in all caps to help you to distinguish my answers from your questions.)

When I hear people say that they are guaranteed eternal life and can not lose it, it worries me. For one it sounds very proud and haughty IT ISN'T HAUGHTY IF WE GIVE GOD CREDIT FOR OUR SALVATION. WHAT'S HAUGHTY IS TO ASSUME THAT WE CAN SOMEHOW MERIT OUR OWN SALVATION (OR THE KEEPING OF IT) THROUGH OUR GOOD WORKS. and two where exactly does the fear of the Lord come in place with knowing you have and can never lose eternal salvation? THE MORE WE KNOW GOD, THE MORE WE FEAR HIM. AS A CHRISTIAN, WE NEED NEVER FEAR ETERNAL CONDEMNATION. BUT GOD CAN AND DOES STILL DISCIPLINE HIS CHILDREN WHEN THEY ARE WALKING OUT OF STEP WITH HIM. AND HE IS STILL OFFENDED BY OUR SIN.

Hebrews 6:4-6 "For in the case of those who have one been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" WHILE SOME THINK THIS VERSE IS TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBLE LOSS OF SALVATION, THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO OTHER VALID INTERPRETATIONS: 1) THIS IS A WARNING AGAINST THE MERE PROFESSION OF FAITH SHORT OF SALVATION; AND 2) THIS IS A WARNING OF THE DANGER OF A CHRISTIAN MOVING FROM A POSITION OF TRUE FAITH AND LIFE TO THE EXTENT OF BECOMING DISQUALIFIED FOR FURTHER SERVICE (SEE I COR. 9:27)

Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? " HERE THE WRITER OF HEBREWS IS HIGHLIGHTING JUST HOW SERIOUS IT IS TO DELIBERATELY AND WILLFULLY SIN AGAINST A HOLY GOD. THIS IS DESERVING OF GOD'S WRATH AND FURY, WHICH IS LIKENED TO A CONSUMING FIRE (SEE HEBREWS 12:29). HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONE CAN LOSE HIS SALVATION AND GO TO HELL. WHILE ONE MAY BE DESERVING OF GOD'S FURY, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE WILL BE SENT TO HELL, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN DELIVERED FROM CONDEMNATION. IT DOES, HOWEVER, HIGHLIGHT THE IMMENSE LOVE, MERCY, AND GRACE EXTENDED TO US BY GOD.

Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."  THE POINT IS THAT NO AMOUNT OF GOOD DEEDS CAN OVERSHADOW OR ATONE FOR ONE'S SINFUL ACTS. AND THE MENTION OF LIFE AND DEATH HERE IS A TEMPORAL ALLUSION, REFERRING TO PHYSICAL LIFE AND PHYSICAL DEATH ... NOT ETERNAL CONDEMNATION.

Joe, if we believe that sin can cause one to lose his salvation, then one has to ask, how many sins, or what degree of sin, would warrant the loss of one's salvation? If we try to rank sins according to their severity, we would erroneously assume that there is such a thing as a "small" sin. Remember the sin that cast the entire human race into condemnation? It was the "small" sin of eating a piece of fruit!

If such a seemingly small sin could have such devastating consequences, then one has to wonder how "small" the sin might be that might cost him his salvation. We all sin. Every day, most likely. Does God really want us going to bed every night wondering if we might die and go to hell? And who's to say that my "small" sin is any less serious than that of another, who may seem deserving of losing his salvation?

When God adopted us into His family, we were adopted forever. It wasn't like a father who said you can be my son unless you disappoint me. No, it was forever. Sure, we may disappoint God. And sure, the rebellious child who lives a life of antagonism towards his father is certainly not the ideal, and he brings shame and misery to himself and sorrow to his father. But, as in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Father will still wait with open arms, ready to receive back his son.

The doctrine of eternal security is clear. But it wasn't meant to encourage a rebellious lifestyle. And the fact is that, for those who are truly saved, their salvation generally motivates them to live a life of gratitude, not one of rebellion. The doctrine of eternal security, however, is intended to teach us that God's love, mercy, and grace are much more than we deserve. It is because of His tremendous mercy and amazing grace that we are saved, and "kept saved."

If you would like to discuss this further, let me know. While you may not agree with my position, I have attempted to use Scripture to make my point (as you have). Discussions like these are healthy, as they draw us to the truth and help to clarify our convictions.

Scott




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Scott thank you for your quick response. I am just kind of curious and I hope you don’t mind but I was just wondering who taught you what you know about the scripture? I don’t mean it in any disrespect I am just curious.
I appreciate your time answer these questions and I don’t mean any offense I just believe God means what He says and says what He means. When you explained that in Hebrews 10:26-29 that the writer of Hebrews is highlighting “just how serious it is to deliberately and willfully sin against a Holy God” yet there is no consequence, how serious can it really be? Again this thinking that God doesn’t really mean what He says here and that you are okay no matter what you do removes the fear of God.
Your analogy about the house at face value did make sense to me, but then I started thinking about it and a scripture came in mind and this contradicts what Christ said in a parable about the talents. Matthew 25:14-30. I am sure you are familiar with this parable because it is quite known. The master entrusts his servants with all his possessions each one according to their own ability. He freely gave them his possessions however what happened when he returned? All but one of the slaves made an increase on those talents, and the one that did not the master said “you wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents” That slave was then cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This parable is speaking about every true born again believer. God has entrusted those with His Holy Spirit and He does not want us sitting on our hands and doing nothing with it. In fact in Ephesians just after the scripture you brought out where it says we are not saved by works lest any man should boast, it continues on and says in Eph 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” So a true believer is actually created to do good works just like Jesus Christ did while He was on earth. He even told His disciples that they would do greater works than He because He goes to the Father. Now does this mean we are saved only because we do these good works? No, because there were those that did many signs and wonders in the name of Jesus Christ and Christ said to them depart from me you who practice lawlessness I never knew you. So obviously they didn’t do something according to God’s commands. John 14:15 says “If you love Me you will keep my commandments” so in order for us to show God and Christ that we love them we are still required to keep His commands.
Something else you brought out was the point on how a seemingly small sin could have such a devastating consequence and how one has to wonder how “small” the sin might be that might cost him his salvation.  Honestly God is the only judge of that one, I wont even take a stab at it but in James 2:10 it says “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one, he has become guilty of all” So this is the answer to your question. Now again God is very merciful and He does forgive as long as we change our mind (repent) and ask for forgiveness. But God is very clear that we can’t just be the same person we were before we came to the Lord. And those scriptures prove that. It says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” so our salvation is something we must work out between ourselves and God. It doesn’t mean we are saving our own lives and providing eternal salvation by our works. But we are putting to work the gift that God gave us and not putting our eternal Father to shame.
James 2 is great in explaining what true faith really is: 2:18 “But someone may say, you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works”
So true faith is actually putting it to work, just like it says previous “If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “go in peace be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?”
Even so faith if it has no works, is dead by itself. 2:17
This is what the scripture says it is in no way my opinion it is straight out of the Bible. We must put Gods gift to us (the Holy Spirit) to work or we will be like that lazy and wicked slave that was cast into outer darkness.

Answer
Joe,

I am so glad that you are thinking through these issues. This is important stuff!

I think you're confusing justification with sanctification. Justification is the process by which God justfies us--imputes our sin to Christ, and Christ's righteousness to us--as a free gift. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the process by which the Holy Spirit molds us into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.

You are right to think that an infinitely Holy God who abhors sin might be justified in sending us all to hell. None of us deserves anything more. But you cannot fully comprehend God's mercy and grace until you understand His holiness. Yes, the sins of a believer offend God's holiness, as well. (And we all continue sinning after salvation! Even the apostle Paul struggled with this!) But our salvation is a testament to His amazing mercy and grace. Hard to fathom, I know. But God's mercy is immense.

I agree with you. We should not take sin lightly, nor should one ever use his salvation as an excuse to sin. But let's be careful not to dishonor the Scripture by claiming that one can lose his salvation. To say that means that we, by our good works, maintain our own salvation. Salvation--always, and at all times--is a free gift of God, and is accomplished by Him alone.

John 10:27-29:  "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Eternal life. Never perish. No one (NO ONE!) can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Scott

P.S. In answer to your question about my Bible training, I have attended good, Bible-teaching churches since I was a baby, attended a Christian school, Bible college, and seminary. Those have created a foundation for my Bible training, which continues to this day. (Sounds like you are a student of the Bible, as well. That's great!)