Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 12/10/2005

Question
-------------------------
Followup To
Question - Hi Pastor Don,

Thanks for your nice message and all of the great information. I haven't had a chance to check all of it out but have been quite interested in what I've seen so far. I enjoyed reading about Dr. Gish's work on evolution versus creation. Personally, I think evolution was a tool used in creation and I do see that both may have gotten us where we are tody. I think evolution is very elegant....and quite CREATIVE!! I may be mistaken but I don't think Dr. Gish doubts that the world is billions of years old. As an accomplished scientist, I don't see how he could. I'll continue to look into the references you offered and I thank you for making such an effort to enlighten me. Also, I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the bible. Your are truly an expert. You mentioned that errors in the bible would mean that "God lied"....I don't think that at all and would never presume that God would lie. I just think that much has probably been misinterpretted by MAN..because of all the translations through the ages and the fact that through much of history, language was primitive, people were biased and there were so many opportunities for mistakes (by men) to be made. That's certainly not God's fault!

I also wanted to mention that I enjoyed your website very much. You have a very nice church...and a very fine looking family!! Merry Christmas!

Chuck
-------------------------
Followup To
Question - Hi Pastor Don,
On the contrary, you do not seem odd to me at all but much of what you beieve sounds odd. In another message you mentioned that the bible should be accepted in it's entirety or not at all. Why? It's a collection of books written and assembled by people. I belive much of what I read in the newspaper but certainly not all of it. I feel the same about the bible.

As far as the earth being old in order to explain evolution, I've never heard of such a thing and, having taken a great deal of geology (including paleontology) in college, I think an extraordinarily strong case can be made that the earth is billions or years old and, based on the sedimentary record, there's absolutely no way dinosaurs ever walked the earth within several hundred million years of the time that people did. The geological record proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt as do a number of other indicators. If you can reference a geologist, with an advanced degree, from a recognized university that believes otherwise, I would make every effort to read of his work.

As I said in another message, I very much admire your faith and your adherence to your beliefs....This is all fairly new to me and, to be honest, I didn't know educated people believed such things. I find it fascinating and don't feel any urge to belittle you, at all! By the way, I don't find evolution threatening at all to belief in God..and neither do many millions of other people.

Chuck


-------------------------
Followup To
Question - Hi Pastor Don,

I'm afraid I'm becoming a pest! I read much of what was on the "ansersingenesis" website you referenced and found it to be surprising and fascinating. I must ask you a couple of other simple questions because I'm terribly curious to understand your thinking. How old do you think the earth is? Do you believe that people and dinosaurs were ever alive at the same time? Thank you for the time and effort you've so graciously given to my messages; I admire your devotion to faith and your tenacity in your beliefs.

Chuck
-------------------------
Followup To Hi Pastor Don,

Thank you so much for such a lengthy and thorough response to my question about biblical accuracy. It is obvious that you are a strong believer and very well acquainted with the bible. I still have huge misgivings and I'll try to briefly explain. I have little difficulty believing in God but any difficulty I do have rises from the biblical teachings not involving God...but people; and the story of Noah is the example I offered you because, taken literally and in total, it's not possible.

I am a scientist by education and occupation but I don't think even that is necessary to understand the glaring problems with the story. Just to name a few: I do believe there was a large flood but that it was not nearly as massive as the one that would have been necessary to cause Noah's predicament. Also, the scientific community is in agreement that the flood did not occur as a result of rain, as the bible states. If all but a few of each species were wiped out, the dispersion necessary to put the post-flood animals on the various continents could never have happened (unless you belive that major plate tectonic movements happened within the last several thousand years...and you'd have to literally be crazy to belive that.)Also, the archeological record doesn't show a massive layer of animal remains that would have to exist.The many other problems are too numerous to mention but I think you understand my point.

I don't understand why someone can't believe in God without accepting that every single idea in the bible is true. I think the "all or nothing" tenet is unfair and I also think there are many theologians that are wonderful believers that fall into that category because they accept the notion that people are fallible and that much of the bible is a teaching tool and not an accurate historical set of documents. I would appreciate your response and, since you're so well-informed about the bible and generous with your responses, I'm going to ask you another question that I also find interesting..next time! Thank you, Pastor Don.

Chuck
Question -
Hi Pastor Don,
There is nothing I would like more than to believe that the books of the bible are true. However, God gave us the gift of reason and common sense which would lead any reasonable person to conclude that much of the bible couldn't possibly be true. In addition, even the parts that don't defy common sense probably aren't true bcause of the age of the stories, lack of educated historians, vast number of translations, etc. Take the story of Noah's ark, for example. There are dozens of reasons to conclude that probably none of the story is true and so very few reasons to think any of it is. Surely, even dedicated theologians must realize that none of it makes sense.....Am I alone in my thinking and, consequently, in terrible trouble? Thank you for your thoughts!
Answer -
Hi Chuck,

Thank you for your question.  I am not sure where tostart.... you seem to have already reached a conclusion and I can't imagine that a ew words from me will turn your belief system on its ear, but I will give you a few things to think about.

Many truths from the Bible require that a person have accepted Jesus as Savior and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.  No offence, but according to the Bible, without the Holy Spirit, many Biblical truths willnot make sense to you.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

You say that God gives common sense. If you are going to believe ANYTHING in the Bible because it is some kind of devine tuth, then it is illogical to think that you have the ability, as a finite being, to determine whether something is true about an infinite Being!  The Bible must be taken or rejected as a whole, not parcled out as to what you feel good about or understand.  Truth is not subject tous...it simply exists and it is up to us to either discover it or deny it and remain ignorant.  You are on dangerous ground if you rely on your own common sense.  Let us see what comes from the human heart.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

So if you are trusting in your reasoning and your gut feelings....you are in trouble.

I am suprised that you would pick on Noah...  Most religious cultures refer so some kind of ancient global flooding event.  More and more scientists are cocluding that there must have been some kind of global flood sometime in the distant past.  Of all the things to site as to a reason not to believe...the flood is one of the easiest to verify and understand.

Here is a book that Ihighly recomend writen by an agnostic journalist who confronted the Bible and was converted.

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=41449&netp_id=31593

Check it out!  Investigate and see if there may be something to this stuff!

I hope that I have helped you.  I only want you to enter into the wonderful world of belief and possibilities that I have found.

In Christ
Pastor Don
Answer -
Hi again Chuck,

Thank you so much for your follow up.  THis time I am going to refer you to some primary sources that are much better at relating the Bible and science.  Let me stress again that you would benifit from the book I reccomended last post.  Now let me send you t a couple of sites that will deal with the flood.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp


http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/fossils.asp

(Go to the bottom of this page where you will find articles regarding the Flood.)

Chuck, my faith is not an illogical leap in a dark hole of ignorance.  Consider the articles in those posts.  You may want to check the home page of that site as well.... I think that you will find many things that will challenge your presuppositions.  I hope that this helps you as you continue your search for truth.

In Christ,
Pastor Don
Answer -
Hi Chuck,

I admire you for being willing to at least look at what we fundamentalists believe.  I will answer your questions simply.  I absolutely believe that our earth is about 6,000 years old.  The only evidence for an ancient earth is based upon the presupposition that we have to have an old earth because if we didn't then evolution could not have taken place.  Everyone bases their core beliefs upon unporvable presuppositions.  I happen to believe that it is more reasonable to believe in an eternal God than to believe in eternal rocks that randomly explode creating universes with perfectly ballanced ecosystems.  I also believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted.  I believe that it was the climate change as a result of the world wide flood that killed off the beasts.  Note the wording of Job, it seems as though the author is describing a Brontasaurus (forgive my spelling) in the following passage:

Job 40:15-24
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.  16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.  18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. 19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. 20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. 21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. 22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. 23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.  24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.  

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

I know that I may seem very odd to you.  Let me assure you that I was not raised in a home school.  I went to a public school and was taught the theory of evolution.  I believe that I am a reasonable person with rational thinking.  I weigh the evidence in the light of true science and in the light of my scriptural presuppositions and these are the conclusions that I have reached.  As you may know by now...I am not alone.  Bible believing Evangelicals are growing in number all over the world.

Feel free to ask any follow up quesitons that you wish about scriptures.  As you probably have seen, I am not an expert on chration science, so I will refer you to others on specific questions.  I am very glad for your curiosity.
I hope that I am helping you.

In Christ
Pastor Don
Answer -
Hello again Chuck,

You are a high point in my day!  I enjoy your posts.  You have a refreshingly open mind.  I don't know if you will ever come to the point of agreement, but you seem to be genuinly investigating these issues.

I have done what you asked.  I have found an author that I respect that you should investigate.

Dr. Duane T. Gish - Ph.D. Biochemistry, University of California, Berkley

I saw him debate on the campus of Oberlin College about 25 years ago.  Here is his website:

http://www.nwcreation.net/duanegish.html

Here is a link to the books he has written:

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&wauth=Duane+T.+Gish&siteID=PmFI5OlC

As to why I believe it is logical to either take all or reject all of the Bible is based upon my willingness to be under its authority rather than putting it under my authority.

The Bible clearly states that God's ways are above my finite ability to comprehend.  The human heart is corrupt at the core...it cannot be trusted.  To trust my flawed reasoning above God's perfect word is to guarentee that I will be in error.

Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.   
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The Bible even warns about false science ( something that claims to be fact, but is only unproven theory like evolution)

1 Timothy 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

As to evolution, I do not find it threatening to my belief in GOd, but it is a direct threat to God's Holy Word, and hence, is a threat to the only way I can find out about God, through His Word.  If He lied about creation, then He may not be trusted about any other part of the book.  Once again...  if I am the Book's editor, then I have elevated myself above it...  I will not do that.  Even God will not do that...look at this powerful verse:

Psalm 138:2
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

In the Bible, great significance is given to the phrase "the name of the LORD"....and God puts His WOrd above His name!  WOW!

I hope that this gives you some more to think about...  Feel free to write back if you have any other questions.  Thanks again for your curiosity!

In Christ,
Pastor Don

By the way, I have a web site with a lot of sermon notes and links to our international radio broadcast if you are interested.

http://ebc.cleaninter.net

Answer
Thank you once again for your interest.  Let me briefly explain what I meant when I said that if evolution was true, then God lied.

1.  The Bible claims to be God- Breathed.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The Greek word for inspiration is theopnustos which literally means "God- Breathed".  The Bible claims that ALL of it is God- Breathed.

2.  The Bible also states that every WORD will be preserved by God.... it will not be lost.

Psalm 12:6-7
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Jesus even said:

Matthew 24:35
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Notice that the subject is not the thoughts or the intents of the Almighty, but the very WORDS will be preserved.

Now that we have established the fact that the Bible claims that every word is important, let us see a phrase repeated in the creation account:

Genesis 1:5,8,12,19,23,31

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The Hebrew word translated Day, Yom, when used with a number like in the passages above, ALWAYS means a specific 24 hour period.  To think that "day" was allegorical of the evolutionary process is to butcher the text and its intent.

Since it is clear that the Bible leaves absolutly no doubt as to its insistance of a literal 6 day creation, and since the Bible is God-Breathed, and since Jesus CHrist Himself promised that no word would pass away, then to accept evolution is to reject the Biblical account of how it happened, and thus, call God a liar.

Chuck, I know that this is not your intent, but the Bible is a complete and Divine document that must be accepted or rejected.  I know that I am not an expert on Science, but I feel like I am a qualified expert on what the Bible says, and I think that it is clear that the Bible teaches a 6 day creation.

You mentioned the many translations as a reason to believe that perhaps the Bible is not a trustworthy document...at least it is not a perfect word for word account of what was originally written.  I have done much research in the transmission of scriptures through out the centuries, and if you want to go down that road at another time, I can tell you why I believe there is evidence of perfect preservation of scriptures.

Anyway...I am sure that you did not expect another lengthy response.  I just love this stuff!  Have a very Merry Christmas!

In Christ,
Pastor Don