Expert: Mel and Guyna Horne - 2/23/2007

Question
I have always been"taught" that when one dies, their soul goes to heaven or hell right then. But the more I search on the subject of death from the Bible (KJV), I'm beginning to believe that when one dies, everything stops, even time. The dead know nothing. Plain and simple. Can you share your thought with me on this subject, and maybe show me some verses as to if this is true or not?
Thanks.

Answer
Hi Robert,

  [This is rather long, so we may have to send it in two parts. If you see our signature at the bottom, you got it all.]

  Not all churches teach that the dead are in heaven or hell but most support that idea based on a few selected scriptures, which are taken to be literal, while ignoring numerous other scriptures which contradict that idea.
  Some say that scriptures such as  Ec. 9:5, "the dead know not any thing" are referring to the bodies and not to the soul. This response is used in defense to the question, "Why bother to have a physical resurrection if everyone is already in heaven or hell?"  Some answer is that the soul is reunited with the body (which has to be rebuilt from dirt) in order for the damned to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).  Of course this doesn't answer why the righteous are also being resurrected, but  with an "incorruptible" form (1Cor. 15:52). Why, if one were already a spirit living in Heaven with God, would one be resurrected to a physical state?  If this sounds confusing, then that is the first clue that it is incorrect (1Cor. 14:33). All this leads one to questions about the nature of the soul and whether it is immortal as some claim.
  If you go to various denominational web sites and look at their doctrinal statements, you will notice that their explanations are extremely brief and often vague. Some say nothing other than they believe in a hell and a heaven.  Sad, that organizations that claim divine authority to teach others, can't even explain death.

 Non-believers claim that the Bible contains contradictory statements.  But contradictions would be confusion and God explained that he does not author confusion, therefore the confusion is in the mind of the reader who sees contradictions, and not in the scripture.

  What some do not understand, is that they do not understand.  Christ explained this in answering why he spoke in parables. We are sometimes asked why doesn't everyone understand the same thing, even though the person asking has read all of Mat. 13.  The answer to that question is in Mat. 13.

  All this is somewhat apart from your question, but if you ask your question of anyone from mainstream Christianity, all of this will come into play.

  From the beginning, God tried to keep it simple.  Two people, two commands "dress and keep the garden" and "don't eat of that one tree".  At Mt. Sinai, he gave them ten commandments, that were also fully expressed in two simple commands "Love God" and "Love others" (Deu. 10:12, 19).  They had two choices, "life and blessings" or "cursings and death", but to be clear, he strongly suggested that they "choose life" (Deu. 30:15, 19).  All of the rest of the laws, which were simply extensions of the laws of love toward God and love toward others, were added because they couldn't or wouldn't grasp the full meaning of those two simple laws.

 The point is that in scripture, just as in life, the simple answer is often the correct one.

 Psa. 115:17,  The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.  (The righteous are not in heaven praising God).

 Psa. 143:3,  For the enemy has persecuted my soul; he has smitten my life down to the ground; he has made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.  (The dead are all in darkness not in the light that surrounds God's throne, Rev. 21:23, 25.)

 Ec. 9:5, For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 Note: When the word "hell" is used in the OT, it is translated from the Heb. "sheol" which means "grave" but which has sometimes been translated as "hell" or "pit" by translators influenced by the Catholic teaching of an ever burning hell.

   Compare Psa. 141:7, "Our bones are scattered at the grave's [sheol] mouth, as when one cuts and cleaves wood upon the earth."

   Gen. 37:35,  "And all his [Jacob's] sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him." (Why would Jacob expect to go to an ever burning hell? Heb. 11:9) (See also Gen. 42:38, 44:29, 31).
 
   Job compared it to a place to hide from God's wrath, "O that you would hide me in the grave [sheol], that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!"  (Note his reference to a resurrection from the grave.) (Job 14:13).

   Psa. 31:17,  "Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon you: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave."  (Not screaming in torture.)

  Job17:13, "If I wait, the grave is my house: I have made my bed in the darkness." (A comparison of death to sleep.)

  Job 21:32, "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb."  (Not go somewhere else.)

 Psa. 6:5, "For in death there is no remembrance of you [God]: in the grave who shall give you thanks? (Memory and speech require consciousness.)

 Ecc. 9:10, "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go." (Just darkness and silence.)

 Jn 11:11 "These things said he [Christ]: and after that he said unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps [Gk. koimao]; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep [koimao]."
          :12     Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep [koimao], he shall do well.
          13     Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death [thanatos]: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest [koimesis] in sleep [hupnos].
          14    Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead [apothnesko].
          17    Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
          23    Jesus said unto her, Your brother shall rise again.
          24    Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
          38     Jesus therefore again groaning in himself came to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
          39     Jesus said, Take you away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, said unto him, Lord, by this time he stinks: for he has been dead four days
          43    And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
          44    And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus said unto them, Loose him, and let him go."

    Martha said Lazarus had been in the grave four days. Christ did not say that he was in heaven or in hell. Christ explained that death is like sleep.  Lazarus was in the grave "four days". Not in heaven. Not in hell.
    If he had been in heaven for four days, why didn't he tell people what it was like?  Why wasn't he at least a little upset at having to return to physical life to face dying again?  Lazarus had nothing to say about being dead because it is like being asleep, otherwise Christ is a liar.

  Paul used the same word to refer to death as Christ did when he said Lazarus was asleep:
 1Cor. 7:39 "The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband be dead [koimao], she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord."

 Both righteous and unrighteous come out of graves:
 Jer. 8:1 "At that time, says the Lord, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:"
 A prophecy of a future event. Most of the kings, princes, priests and Jerusalemites were not righteous, but most of the prophets were righteous. God lumps them all together as being resurrected out of their graves.

 Eze. 37:1-14  [A prophecy of a future time when people are resurrected to physical life from their graves, not from hell or heaven.]
         :12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus says the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."
         :24 "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."
        :27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them: yes, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
        :28 "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

   Note: Gal. 3:7 "Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."  (And therefore "spiritual" Israelites.)

 Mat. 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
            :53 "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

 Heb. 11:35  "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: "

   The "saints which slept" were resurrected from the graves, not from heaven or hell.  None of them told stories about what heaven is like. None of them complained about returning to earth. None of them said anything about death because it is as Christ described, like being asleep.

  Jn. 5:25  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
  Jn. 5:28  "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"  
  Jn. 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
  A reference to the prophecy of Eze. 37.
    
  Jn. 3:13 " And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

  1Ths. 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

  Zech. 14:4  "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

  Note that "the dead in Christ" and "we which are alive (in Christ)" rise to meet Christ "in the air" and then Christ lands on the mount of Olives, on earth. The righteous go to "heaven" only in the sense of the "air" above the earth, the level of "the clouds", not to God's throne which exists in a spiritual dimension beyond what is seen.
 We cannot be "with Christ forever" if he is on the earth and we are somewhere else.

  Long after Christ died and was resurrected, Paul wrote, concerning Abraham and all the righteous who had already died up to that point:
  Heb. 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
       :39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:"
  And concerning those who have not yet died:
    Heb. 13:14 "For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

 Rev. 3:12 "Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."
 Rev. 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

 Rev. 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."  

 Jn. 6:54  "Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Rev. 20:4  "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Rev. 20:7-9 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
         And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
        And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city [New Jerusalem]: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

  Rev. 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
       And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 This is the second resurrection.

 Note: In Rev. 20:13, the word "hell" is translated from the Gk. "hades" which is also Gk. for "grave".  The concept of hades as a "nether world" ruled by Pluto, is from Greek mythology.
 If "hell" were a place of punishment, why would people resurrected from there, and be judged -after- being sent there???  And then be cast back into it???

 Rev. 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 No one goes into a (hell-type) fire until 1,000 years after Christ returns.

 To illustrate the "lake of fire", Christ referred to "gehenna" or "valley of gehenna", the valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, where trash, garbage, dead animals and the bodies of those who were thought to be unfit for proper burial, were cast.  Fires burned there almost continually.  Sulphur was added to bodies to make them burn. Hence, the references to "the fire that shall never be quenched" (Mk. 9:43, 45) and "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:11).  Not quenching a fire means allowing it to burn itself out when it runs out of fuel.  "Smoke ascends for ever" indicates permanent destruction. The torment will only last seconds at the most.  First and Second degree burns hurt. When burns reach Third degree, the pain stops because the nerve endings have been destroyed. When air or smoke above a certain temp enters the lungs, the airways close off completely which would cause suffocation and death of the brain within four minutes. People usually pass out from lack of oxygen, and the presence of carbon dioxide, before death in a fire. The shock could kill one even sooner, if the fear didn't stop the heart even before being cast into the flames. In any case the "torment" will be brief as would be expected from a God who is described as "merciful" (Deu. 4:31).

 Rest:

  It is ironic that so many use the terms "rest in peace",  or "rest now" when saying goodbye to the dying.  We name cemeteries "Pilgrim's Rest".  Yet so many don't believe that anyone is "resting" in death.
  God told Daniel that he would "rest" until "the end". Dan.12:13, "But go you your way till the end be: for you shall rest, and stand in your lot at the end of the days."

  Jn. 11:13 "Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep."

  Rev. 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them."
 Note. "rest", Gk. "anapauo" - "to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labor in order to recover and collect his strength", "to keep quiet".  

  Some misc. scriptures:

    Luke 16:19-31  [a parable of Lazarus the beggar and a rich man].
    There is no parallel gospel account of Christ saying these words. (Note: Requirement for 2-3 witnesses for matters of life and death, Deu. 17:6, 19:15, Mat. 18:16, 2Cor. 13:1, 2Tim. 2:2, Rev. 11:3). There is a possibility that this section was added by translators.
    Christ's speeches are usually introduced with, "and he said unto them" Luke 16:1, 15.  The subject changes in verse 19, with no such introduction.
    According to this account, the angels serve as pallbearers (v. 22). This is not shown anywhere else in scripture.
    According to this account, people "in heaven" can talk to people "in hell". This is contradicted by all of the above scriptures about the dead.
    According to this account, the beggar is "in heaven" only because he had a rough life "received evil things". Nothing is said about him being righteous.
    According to this account, the rich man is "in hell" only because he had "received good things". Nothing is said about unrighteousness.
    According to this account, there is water "in hell" v. 24.
    The rich man is "buried" while the angels "carry" the beggar to Abraham.
    Based on this account, the righteous will spend eternity watching and hearing the suffering of those "in hell", and denying their pleas for relief.
    Based on this account, the rich go to hell and the poor go to heaven. This is another similarity to early Catholic teaching.

    These things indicate that these verses were heavily edited or added by someone after Luke.
    The only part that is compatible with the rest of Christ's teachings is the last verse which refers to the Jews' failure to understand Moses and the prophets and their refusal to accept Christ, who rose from the dead.

    
  The thief on the cross:
  Luke 23:43, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, To day shall you be with me in paradise."

  There is no second witness that Christ said these words.
  This contradicts all the scriptures above about the state of the dead.
  It is possible that Christ was trying to comfort the dying man, in the sense that the next time the man would be conscious (at the resurrection) he would not be "in hell".
  It is also possible that this was added to support the validity of death-bed confessions, a doctrine of the Catholic church.


  Elijah:
 2K2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
 The word "heaven" can refer to the place of God's throne (Gen. 24:7) or to the "air" above the earth, including outer space.
 Gen. 1:14, The sun, moon and stars are in "heaven".
 Gen. 1:20, The birds fly in "heaven".

 Humans cannot "see" into the place of God's throne, except by a "vision" (e.g. Rev.1:10, 19:4).
 Elijah was taken up into the air above the earth.  This is why the other prophets wanted to go to the mountains look for him, 2K2:16-18.
 We are not told what happened to Elijah.  Either he was "translated" like Enoch (Heb. 11:5) or he "died" in some mountain like Moses. The point of his miraculous disappearance seems to be to strengthen the faith of Elisha.

  
 Moses:
  Deu. 31:16, "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers; . . . "
  Deu. 32:49,  "Get you up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
   :50  "And die in the mount where you go up, and be gathered unto your people; as Aaron your brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:"
 Ex. 34:7, "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated."

  In other words, there was no physical reason for Moses to die. God probably just let him go to sleep. In sending him up Mount Nebo, he allowed him to see the promised land and was able to hide Moses' body so that it was not used for idolatry.  Notice that God told him "you shall sleep".


  Enoch:
   Gen. 5:24, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
   Apparently, God hid Enoch's remains, as he did with Moses and Elijah, since no one witnessed his death and there was no burial.

  If Elijah, Enoch or Moses had been changed into a spirit being, then Christ could not be the "firstborn" into the Kingdom of God.  Since he is the "firstborn", we can know that everyone else that lived before him was still dead when Christ was resurrected.

 John 3:10, "Jesus answered . . ."
           :13  "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (also Pro. 30:4).

 Some say that the righteous who died before Christ's resurrection, went to heaven after his resurrection, but this is contradicted by the OT prophets and by Christ in Revelation. This idea is from the Catholic doctrine of four divisions of hell, three of which (two "limbo"s and one "purgatory") are for temporary punishment before one can enter "heaven". More recently, the Catholic Church has considered dropping the doctrine of purgatory. No explanation was given for what would happen to anyone who was still in there when the church cancels that doctrine.


  We must also comment on Rev. 6:9.
  "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
   This is a "vision" not a "real time" experience (Rev. 1:20).
   The altar is where the sacrifice was burned. The altar constructed for the Tabernacle was patterned after the one at God's throne (Heb. 8:5, Ex. 25:9, 40).
   The altar was approx. 88.5 inches square (Ex. 27:1, cubit = 17.5 in.).
   The blood of the sacrificial animals was to be poured out at the base of the altar (Ex. 29:12).

  The life is considered by God to be in the blood (Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11-14, Deu. 12:23, Jn. 6:53).

  After Cain killed Abel God made reference to this, "And he said, What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood cries unto me from the ground."
  In the same sense, God made a similar statement in Rev. 6.
  Rev. 6:9. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
     :10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

 Abel's dried blood did not speak to God, other than in a symbolic sense.
 The dead in Christ "know nothing", are in "darkness" and are "at rest" in "silence".
 The blood, along with the body, returns to "dust".

 So, what happens to the "soul"?  By "soul", we mean the personality, memory and character that makes each human unique from all others.

  Paul said that we can understand the things of God by looking at the things we can see:
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” ( Rom 1:2).

  If we use a computer and never delete anything, we can take a disk and copy all the programs installed in our computer, including the memory and caches, surfing history, a keystroke record, all the files, everything.  We can then remove the disk and destroy all the hardware, the tower, monitor, keyboard, mouse, camera, speakers, every piece of it.  Smash it into pieces, grind it into dust, burn it until nothing is left, except some smoke that arises "forever" and perhaps some ash or mineral residue that becomes "dust in the wind".
  After a few minutes or a few thousand years, we can mine some minerals and pump some petrochemicals, extrude materials, machine and mold the parts, and build a completely new tower, monitor, and all the parts we had before. We can make them identical to the original or build a newer design.  Then we take the information we have "saved" on a floppy or a CD and reinstall it and reboot it.
  The "soul" or "information" is "at rest" until it is reinstalled and rebooted.

  The false ideas about heaven and hell appear to have come down to us from Greek and other mythologies, through the early Catholic church, and poets such as Dante, and subsequently, through the Protestant churches.
  Although the KJV has been preserved to the extent that we can confidently seek salvation, it still shows signs of human tampering. Using the principles of multiple witnesses and Isa. 28:9-10, and looking for the scriptures to confirm or explain one another, we do not have to be overly concerned about that.

  We have tried to address all the most common arguments. There are more scriptures that are relevant.
   We hope this helps.

  Sincerely,
 Mel and Guyna

  For more answers and for Christian humor, visit
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