Expert: Eric Christy - 2/17/2006

Question
Hello Eric,

Thank you for the quick reply.   But this leaves me with more questions.  I'm glad we can have a friendly theological debate.
 
You say that the devil can defeat Christ by disobeying prophecy.   But what prophecy are we referring to here?   You have stated that Satan can disobey the prophecy about the antichrist thus defeating God/Jesus.  This cannot be since there isn't any reference in the scripture to a rise of one person who will become the antichrist.    Revelation 13 is not referring to a literal rise in an "antichrist" but instead referring to the power of Satan's kingdom and his ability to overtake the saints during the entire New Testament period.    The key to understanding this portion of scripture is "42 months" (Rev 13:5) that the beast will be able to speak blasphemies and exert his power.   This 42 months is referring to the entire New Testament period all the way up until the end of the world.  

42 months = 1260 days   

Revelation 12 refers to a woman who gives birth to a child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron.   This is reference to the church who bears Jesus Christ who is that child that will rule all nations with a rod of iron.    After she gave birth she fled into the wilderness for 1260 days.  

Revelation 12:6 "Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days."    

But notice also that 1260 days = times times and a half a time.   

Revelation 12:14 "But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent."

Notice carefully that Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14 are referring to the same event but using different terminology to describe the time.  
Thus by transitive law 42 months = 1260 days  = times times and a half a time.   

Link this to the verse in the book of Daniel.

Daniel 7:24-25 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones,And shall subdue three kings.  He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time."

This verse in the book of Daniel is referring directly to Revelation 13.   Notice the ten horns stated in this verse and the ten horns on the beast in Revelation 13.   Notice how both entities speak blasphemies and pompous words against the Most High God.    

Revelation 13:1 "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

Here is another verse in Daniel.

Daniel 12:7 "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

The entire world will come to an end once the power of God's holy people is broken through the beast mentioned in Revelation 13.

Notice also the 1260 days and 42 months are also mentioned in Revelation 11.  

God will give power to his two prophets which is a picture of the New Testament church.  The Gentiles, (those who are not saved belong to Satan's kingdom, thus the beast) will tread the holy city 42 months.   Thus the beast will have persecuting power over the believers in Jesus Christ for the entire 42 months or 1260 days.   

Revelation 11:2-3 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.  And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Again the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days, meaning they are spreading the testimony of the gospel forth for the entire New Testament period.   Once the 1260 days are up they will be overtaken by the beast and will be destroyed.  

Revelation 11:7 "When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them."

Thus the power of the Holy people will be broken as stated in Daniel 12:7.  And shortly after we have the resurrection of believers when Jesus Christ returns again.   This is depicted by the resurrection of the two witnesses whom the beast had destroyed.    

Revelation 11:11-12 "Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."

What the Bible is just saying is that during the time of the New Testament era, Satan will be allowed to persecute and speak blasphemies against the Christian church.  However, near the end of the world God will grant Satan more power to do wickedness and to pour his deception over the entire world.    

So what prophecy are you referring to that Satan can break in order to defeat God/Jesus?  

Thanks,

AJ



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Followup To
Question -
Hello Eric,

First off I want to thank you for your detailed response.   You have a very interesting viewpoint of God and the Devil... one that I personally have never heard of before.   But some more questions need to be clarified before I can truly understand this doctrine.    

If the Devil cannot think then how can you reconcile this verse?   
Job 1:9-11 "So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?  Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.  But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

Wouldn't you say that Satan here has very intelligent thinking?    Satan is thinking "Hey God you have blessed Job and the work of his hands, that is why Job loves you.  Job has a happy and easy life.  But if you were to take that away Job will hate you."    
Let's give this some more thought.    

What would be problematic with the thinking that in order to defeat God the Devil is trying to decieve people into eternal hellfire through false teachings.   So the only way to do this is to spread the spirit of anti christ around.   Contrary to what many Christians believe, from my studies of the scripture I don't think the antichrist will actually be a physical human being that will be raised up right before the end of the world.   
There are only four places in the entire Bible that mention the word "antichrist", I will elaborate on three.   

1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

So the antichrist or the spirit of anti christ are those that do not confess that Jesus is Christ and has come in the flesh.   I don't read anywhere in scripture where one day in the future one human will rise into power and become the antichrist.   It seems more like one day in the future the spirit of Antichrist will come where people all over will be denying the very existence of Jesus Christ.   An example of a modern day antichrist is Brian Flemming who claims Jesus never existed.  

I think that the Devil knows his time is very limited.   The Devil has no choice.  Either spread around false deception as fast as possible to delay Judgment Day, or do nothing, in which case Judgment Day will approach even faster because the gospel will be spreading faster.   In order to try to destroy God's plan the best way is to take down as many people as possible with him into eternal hellfire and you do that by spreading false doctrine and turning people into antichrists.   

What are your thoughts?   Please comment.

Thank you,

AJ



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Followup To
Question -
Hello Eric,

In your expertise paragraph you state that you are currently working on showing specific errors in the doctrine of eternal hell and Satan's power and role.  What are these doctrinal errors?   Could you elaborate more?   Thanks,

AJ

Answer -
Hi AJ,

Recently, and after a couple of years of serious consideration, I have renounced my previous stand and will change my position on what I wrote about the Devil. I am now convinced, more than ever, that eternal hell is the future for all who choose not to accept Jesus as their savior.

But I now need to explain something to you. I had held that Satan has the power to defeat God and Jesus because the Bible gives prophecies regarding the Devil's yet future actions. The Devil could defeat God and Jesus by simply choosing NOT to obey the prophecies regarding his future. For instance, if the Devil chose NOT to bring on the antichrist and false prophet, then this would defeat God and Christ by discrediting their ability to tell the truth about the future, specifically the Devil's future. It would be as if I told you that you would go shopping at store X, whereby since I told you ahead of time, you could choose to go shopping at store Y, or store Z, or not go shopping at all. Once God/Jesus put the prophecies in print, this gave the Devil the means to defeat them by discrediting their prophecies.

However, I now believe the Devil will go through with the prophecies because either God is playing both God AND Devil, or the Devil is a puppet on the Puppet Master's stings, which by extension, still makes God also the Devil. One thing is certain, the Devil has no choice in this matter because it would be clear to him that he could defeat God (a thing he's wanted to do since he began his rebellion) if he had free will, as I've stated above. So, consider the Devil to be God's puppet as this would account for why he would still obey prophecy even though it is clear that if he had a brain, he would defeat God by not doing them. Heck, even YOU would defeat God if you were the Devil. Why? Because, unlike the Devil, you have a brain. You would use it to choose NOT to obey prophecy, and therefore, you would defeat God and Jesus.

The Devil is nothing. A nobody. He is inferior to the dumbest of humans. He cannot think. He can only hate. If he had a brain, then he would be dangerous. Even his hatred must ultimately have its source in God. God required a source of evil so that good could be known and appreciated as good. So God created a creature who is pure hate. Pure hate, and so stupid that he can't see how easy it would be defeat God. So consider the Devil to be God's puppet, but again, that means God is the Puppet Master and that means more than most Christians want to consider. But God is a genius, in that this is EXACTLY what is required so that good can be known as good and that by creating evil. Of course, God could have chosen to create beings without free will, which would have saved all the suffering. But because God valued morals more than suffering that abuse of morals would bring, He created Lucifer knowing he would become Satan, the Devil...His evil puppet. At any rate, much needs to be rethought about theology, especially whethere scripture reveals a God who is omniscient, or not. There are scriptures revealing God as not omniscient. But you never hear about them from the pulpit.

The above is a smattering of the 'doctrinal error' of omniscience. The reason is that it makes God ALSO the Devil if He is omniscient. Bummer. It would bode better for the faith if God were not omniscient, then the mistakes He made along the way in creation would be understandable as His meaning well, but since He did not know how everything would turn out (though He certainly could speculate and prepare accordingly) He would not be held accountable for creation's moral failure. And make no mistake, AJ, creation has MORALLY FAILED. But the glory of God is that Christ Jesus paid for that failure of His on the cross. That is why He is loved, admired, and is called Lord. He took personal responsibility for the failure and did what was necessary to fix it, at least for humans who wanted salvation. This is just the beginning of problems doctrinally. There are more. But this will suffice for now. At any rate, don't think me apostate. I am more enamored of Jesus Christ than most Christians. I have good reason to be.

Eric
Answer -
Hi AJ,

Very interesting reply. Yes, I am familiar with the account in Job where Satan 'wagers' against God regarding the character of Job. This story, by the way, indicates that Satan knows God is not omniscient because it is irrational to wager against someone who you know already KNOWS the outcome of the wager. If God were omniscient, then Satan would know this of course, and it would therefore be foolish of Satan to still wager against God regarding Job. But let's say God hid His omniscience from Satan somehow. After the Job event, Satan would now realize God is omniscient. And hence, as stupid as Satan is, he cannot be more stupid than a mere human (myself) who realizes that if God is omniscient, it is futile to continue to fight against a being who knows the end from the beginning. Who knows what your plans are even before you do, who can read your mind so that whatever plans you have against Him He already knows them, who is the most powerful being in the universe.

However, AJ, what is more likely the truth is that God is not omniscient, because if He were, (and we still want to give Satan some intelligence), the wager in Job does not make sense. The only way the wager makes SENSE is if God is not omniscient, and Satan knows God is not omniscient, and hence believes he has a legitimate chance at defeating God's wager put to Satan. That is why I say God is not omniscient, because if he were, then the wager in Job is futile, ridiculous, and asks the reader to turn off their brain as they read the story.  Too often, Christian doctrine requires us to turn off our brain to accept the idiocy of unsupported doctrines.

If however, we make our God non-omniscient, then all the mistakes in scripture and the moral failure in creation (both the fall of angels and man) makes complete sense and can be HONESTLY accountable to God's lack of omniscience. We would expect a non-omniscient God to make mistakes along the way, and sure enough, that's what we see. What makes God so noble, so virtuous, so worthy of our love and respect is not that He does everything right, but that when things go wrong, He makes them right. He takes personal responsibility for His creation and saves what He can, sending us Jesus Christ to save all who wanted saving.

Here is what I believe about God. God the Father is omniscient and does know all things and is all powerful. The creation of man is primarily the desire of the pre-incarnate Jesus who made man in His image, and in His likeness. This Jesus is also God, but is not exactly equal with the Father. The Father is omniscient, the Son (Jesus) is not. This Jesus is the God most often spoken of in Old Testament scripture. He made a promise to His Father that if man morally failed the test, He would pay the cost of that moral failure. This He did, in the course of time, 2000 years ago. Some things the Father held back from the Son so that the Son would not know the outcome of the creation of man. This was to make sure that the Son could be truly tested morally. A moral test is not legitimate, if the one being tested cannot fail the test. The incarnate Jesus was tested, and it was legitimate because He could have failed. It was possible to fail the test. If it were not possible, then Satan would have cried foul-play because his temptations of Christ would have meant nothing. But we know from the book of Hebrews that Jesus was "perfected by that which He suffered". He did not come to us perfect, He was instead, perfected through suffering. And too, perfection requires suffering because without suffering, no moral choices need be made. Notice that Jesus nearly sinned while in the garden of Gethsemane when He begged the Father to "take this cup from me." If He were truly perfect, He would not have asked this because it would mean that He was denying the plan of salvation from the foundation of the world and CHANGING that plan set it stone. Had the Father granted the Son His request, not only would Jesus have sinned, but we would have lost our chance at salvation. Jesus did not take "No" for an answer, but asked 3 times to be let off the hook. It is to His credit, however, that He went through with the plan. This is what makes Him great. That when truly and severely tempted, He still went through with it. He walked that second mile on our behalf.

Now, about the Antichrist. You listed 3 passages showing what the 'spirit of antichrist' is. This has been with us since the time of Jesus. But there is coming a time (soon I fear) where the literal Antichrist will arise causing great suffering throughout the world as depicted throughout the apocalyptic scriptures. Read Revelation chapter 13, you'll see what I'm getting at.

Finally, AJ, consider this. If the Devil were truly intelligent, at least as intelligent as you are, then wouldn't he want to finally defeat God and Jesus? Getting souls is nice and all, but forcing God and Jesus to admit DEFEAT would be far more satisfying to the Devil, don't you think. If the Devil showed the universe that God and Jesus aren't perfect, that they can be defeated, that would be more satisfying to the Devil than mere human souls, which he has plenty of anyway. If I were the Devil, I would use my intelligence to defeat God and Jesus by choosing NOT to obey Bible prophecy. I would choose NOT to bring into the world the Beast and False Prophet, thus showing the universe that God and Jesus cannot tell the truth about things. The universe would now know that God is not perfect, nor Jesus. I would gloat over God and Jesus, defeating them by discrediting their ability to tell the truth about my future events. This is EXACTLY what an intelligent Devil would do. It would be what YOU would do if YOU were in the Devil's predicament. But if our Devil is merely a puppet on the Puppet Master's strings, then of course he will 'obey' prophecy. But if a puppet, then by extension it is God, not the Devil, who is the true Devil! So if the Devil does 'obey' prophecy, then be assured that it is God, not the Devil, who is the true Devil. In this case, God is playing both God AND Devil. I don't know what's worse. Having a Devil defeating God as I have explained, or having God be both God and Devil? Both are problematic, AJ.

I have, however, solved this dilemma. My theology, which I call Rational Theology (RT) solves all these problems and does so honestly, not sweeping unpleasant and unreasonable doctrines under the carpet hoping no one notices the bulge. Whereas there are central doctrines within Christianity that are difficult if not impossible to defend, there are no problems in RT. RT remains faithful to scripture, but without all the embarrassing traditions of men taught for the doctrines of God.

What are your thoughts?

Eric

Answer
Hi AJ,

This is a very interesting reply. It will take me some more time to compose a response. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church, as I see scripture stating the church will have to go through the great tribulation. I also think you are misinterpreting some scriptures, making say something 'symbolic' instead of being literal. Of course, when it comes to interpreting scripture especially prophetic scripture, it's difficult to know when the writer is speaking symbolically or literally. If you would, please send me email, and we can chat about your last reply to me, and more about these prophecy/doctrine issues. You are a knowledgable person and I enjoy chatting with you. My email address is: ericchristy@hotmail.com

Eric