Expert: Pastor Don Carpenter - 11/17/2006

Question
Hello Don,
You still did not answer some of my questions....,
1)Where does the Bible say God the Son ? Doesn't the Bible say Son of God, Don ? Isn't there a difference between the "son of Don", and "Don the son" ? I say there is !!
2)Where does the Bible say "God the Holy Spirit" ?
3)Where does the Bible say God is three separate persons...., I meant: Show me one scripture that explicitly says God is three SEPARATE persons....(you can't Don and you know it)You handled 1John 5:7 very tricky, But here is what the scipture says :For there are three that bear witness in heaven,the Father,the Word--- not Son, Don! the Son was begotten,he was born! He was 100% God, and 100% man.
He had a heavenly Father, and an earthly mother. If the Bible said the Father, the SON, and the Holy Ghost in this scipture, I could honestly see your point of view.The Word in 1John 5:7 is Logos, the same Logos that was in Genesis...
God spoke, and it was!! In 1Timothy 3:16 the Bible says:And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,justified in the Spirit,seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,received up into glory.Don I can give you many scriptures that explicitly teach that God is one...,Deut.6:4
Ephesians 4:6,7- etc.... Show me just ONE scipture where God said I am three persons!! Or better yet,show me teaching of the trinity in the Old Testament.
Don, do you also use the baptism of Jesus to attempt to prove a trinity of persons ? There is only one God !! But He has different offices,roles,titles,or manifestations !!
No where the the Bible expicitly say THREE SEPARATE PERSONS,
but it is a fact the Bible does explicity teach that God is one !! Did the Catholics not establish trinity doctine at the council of Nicea in 325 AD ? What at least makes some sense out of this confusion is that they back up their eternal SON doctrine by having an ETERNAL MOTHER !! From what I've studied in the Hebrew Don,  the very definition of the word son means also to have a FATHER, and a MOTHER..
Can you show me here if I am in error?  I would be very interested in how you answer.....Thanks so much, David
-------------------------------------------
The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
Hello Pastor Carpenter,
I would be interested in your views....,
Do you believe in a triune God or trinity ?
If so, maybe you can help me: The Bible says God the Father, but the Bible does not say God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit. Do you not think that there is a difference between Son of God, and God the Son ? Example: Don the son, and the son of Don. Do you believe Jesus is God ? Do you believe God is the Father ?
I believe that God is One Deut 6:4--- not three SEPARATE persons. Show me where in the Bible where there is a trinity of separate persons.Do you believe in an eternal "Sonship" ? (show scriptures) In the Hebrew in order for there to be a son, there HAS to be a mother (that role Mary fullfilled) Since the Bible makes NO mention of an eternal mother, there can be NO eternal Son !! That's why the catholics made up Mary Mother of God ! Also how come after many, many generations, the Jews, God's chosen never taught about God in 3 separate persons, a trinity, a triune God, or an eternal "Sonship" ?
-----Answer-----
Hi David,

Thank you for this challenging set of questions.  I do believe in the Trinity and I will try to give some Biblical reasons for this and answer some of these questions you have posted.  You have many, so please if I do not handle this subject completely in this post.  If you have need for further clarification, please post a follow up.

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Romans 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Now let us speak of Jesus Christ specifically.  I do believe that the Bible shows that He is very God, including the Godhead (trinity).

Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Notice this prophetic verse about the coming Messiah (which was Jesus)

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Let us consider the names for this one child:

1.  Wonderful, counsellor - seems to refer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

2.  The mighty God. - This child was called THE ( not many )mighty God.

3.  The everlasting Father - This child was called Father, but Jesus had no children.  Which makes sense if you check out John 14:9

4.  The prince of peace - This same child that was called the Mighty God, and The everlasting Father was also called the Prince of peace.  What is a prince... a prince is the SON of a king.

Your premise that in order to be a son one has to have a mother is flawed because we know that Jesus is self existing from eternity past.  Note again the prophecy concerning the Messiah which would be born in Bethlehem.

Micah 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Let us consider a couple of other things about who Jesus claimed to be.  When God spoke to Moses in the burning bush, Moses asked for God's name.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

That word for I AM THAT I AM is Jehovah.  This is God's name and it means I AM!

With this in mind let us consider a conversation that Jesus was having with the Pharasees.  Jesus was speaking about knowing Abraham (he existed over 2000 years before Jesus was born on earth).  Let us see exactly what Jesus said.  Notice especially the wording used in verse 58.

John 8:52-59
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say,  I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Why were they ready to stone Jesus... because He claimed to be the I AM... Jehovah God.

Now as for the Holy Spirit being God.  Let us consider the following passage.

Acts 5:1-4


But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?  4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Verse 3 tells us that Ananias lied to the Holy Ghost.  (You lie to a person not a force) Verse 4 tells us that he lied to God.  This passage equates the Holy Ghost to God.

These are some of the reasons that I believe in the trinity.  If you need further explanation, please ask.  I know that there is much more that could be written on this very important and foundational doctrine.

I hope that this helps you.

In Christ
Pastor Don


Answer
Hi David,

Thank you for this follow up.  It seems that we have a difference of doctrine.  I will try to answer these follow up questions to the best of my ability. I do however, want to avoid a back and forth doctrinal argument.

You still did not answer some of my questions....,
1)Where does the Bible say God the Son ? Doesn't the Bible say Son of God, Don ? Isn't there a difference between the "son of Don", and "Don the son" ?? I say there is !!

You handled  I John 5:7 very tricky, But here is what the scripture says :For there are three that bear witness in heaven,the Father,the Word--- not Son, Don! the Son was begotten,he was born! He was 100% God, and 100% man.


The Bible does not use the term God the Son.  We should see what the Bible says about the Word.

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

This Word was made flesh... this word is Jesus.  Jesus became flesh.  Now let us see who exactly the Word is.

John 1:1-3


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

1.  The word was in the beginning (eternal)
2.  The word was with God.
3.  The word WAS God ( at the same time as being with God!)
4.  The word created all things.

So, it is obvious that the Word being Jesus not only was with God at the beginning, He was God.  So, as we understand from verse 14 tat the Word is Jesus, we see the trinity in 1 John 5 7

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

2)Where does the Bible say "God the Holy Spirit" ?

Nowhere, but I showed you from Acts 5 how that Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God.

3)Where does the Bible say God is three separate persons...., I meant: Show me one scripture that explicitly says God is three SEPARATE persons....(you can't Don and you know it)

The Bible does not teach that there are three separate persons... it teaches that these three persons are part of one God.. trinity - triune - three in ONE.

Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Or better yet,show me teaching of the trinity in the Old Testament.

Please re-read my explanation of Isaiah 9:6

David, I understand that you may hold a different position than I do.  I hope that I have explained a little better why I believe what I do.  I hope that you will find these clarifications to be helpful.

In Christ
Pastor Don