Follow-Ups to Answer from Expert D. Simmons

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SkipChurch wrote at 2011-02-08 18:21:40
The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (not the dead guy, brother of Martha, Jesus raised, another of the same name): this is teaching a moral lesson, not expounding doctrine, and in any event the Rich Man suffering in Hades presumes that he has been judged a sinner, and as we all know this occurs on Judgment Day, not in the moments after death.



Here is what Paul says, which plainly rules out the notion of dying and going to heaven:

1 Thes 4: [13] But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. [14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; [17] then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore comfort one another with these words.



Phil:3 [8] Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ [9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; [10] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. [12] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.



Paul may want his Spirit Body badly, but he has to take a number and wait with the rest of us.



The ability to be "always with the Lord" begins on the Day of Judgment, and in the meanwhile I do not suppose Paul thought the dead in Christ were relaxing in Paradise with Jesus.



The remark of Jesus to the Penitent Thief, though of a legendary character, is interesting. First, is "Paradise" the same thing as heaven? Paradise was the earthy abode of Adam and Eve. Did John Milton write "Heaven Lost"? No, he did not.



"The Heavens", by way of contrast, is where God was imagined chiefly to reside. Of course God is everywhere... but nevermind. The ancients had a three-story universe with the underworld below, the earth in the middle, and the heavens above. Remember Paul gets caught up to the third heaven, according to 2 Corinthians? Where that might be I know not, nor did Paul.



So let's leave it like this: Paul plainly did not believe in an instantaneous trip to heaven or hell. He believed in death, 'sleep' in Christ, resurrection, judgment, glorious spirit-body for the winners.



Jesus, on the thin evidence of the remark to the thief, might have a 'heaven right away' idea. Other ancients-- Jews, Christians, and pagans-- had a variety of ideas, most including a realm like Hades or Sheol where everyone went. This was a gloomy and by all accounts very dull place.



Modern folks like to think of Aunt Annie and Uncle Joe in heaven wearing a nighty and plucking a harp, or perhaps "walking & talking with Jesus. " This last wish is very popular, and I have no doubt that the waiting list is impressive.



Anyway, there is not scriptural basis for that idea, and I suppose we can wait and see, or, believe whatever makes you comfortable.  

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