Expert: Chrys Meatyard - 10/19/2006

Question
that's so far away, i am in Ontario, Canada
-and i will tell him to do both wings.. i just hope he wont charge me per wing (he charged $30, for clipping one wing on the male)

better yet i'll call the other place and ask there, it may be alot cheaper

thanks for the help
Alex

-------------------------------------------


The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
Ok.. i ll ask him when i go there in 2 weeks.
And you are right.. those are my birds.
>or should i just try the other vet and see what happens?
(theres another one.. but its a 20-30 min longer drive)

By the way, if you don;t mind telling me, where do you live? (for all i know you could be somewhere near by and then i can just come to you for advice)

-------------------------------------------

The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
That's what he said, "By the way, we only clip one wing on species like this, if you clip 2 wings it will just make the bird flap wings twice as hard" (that's what he said.. or as good as i can remeber it)
-he said budgies were desert birds too- is that true? (i always thought they were tropical)

and thats the only vet near me that deals with exotic animals.

And the male already has 1 wing cliped... is that a problem now?
-------------------------------------------

The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
- i didn't know that it would be a problem to tame the birds from the the store. and i really didn't think it would be much of a problem with having 2 birds

but you are right, i will wait 2 weeks... maybe 2 and a half, since the vet will give another medication in 2 weeks. and i will also get the female clipped.

-also i think that the male had the beak problem for at least a week and a half (too bad that he didn't;t show it earlier) and that affected his eating, now that hes all better he just eats none stop

the vet said something about clipping only one wing on budgies... does that make much of a difference?
-------------------------------------------
The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
mange (or something close to it) is what he said

and about taking the bird out of the cage...
won't that freak the bird out even more?

(should i just grab it with a net and take it to some other room? or is there a better way which is less stressful to the bird)

-the male seemed fine with the net when i took him to the vet.. he was way easier to catch then the female, she actually bid my brother who was trying to capture her (when i went to the vet first i only bought the male with me, then the vet said that he had to see the other bird too to make sure shes not infected- so i stayed with the male while my brother was getting the other one)

"a neutral room with minimal distractions"- what exactly do you mean by that?

and when i take the bird to the other room, do i just let it go on the floor? (and how do i keep its attention? (i am pretty sure that ones i let go the bird will just run away or fly up somewhere and i will never capture it back)

and i know that taming them wont happen over night or even in few weeks.. i know it will take awhile.. but i feel bad for them sitting in that cage for such a long time.

thanks for all the help so far
Alex
-------------------------

Follow To

Question -

-------------------------

Follow To
Yes, its a male and female, they got the colors you said they might have (male blue, female, sort of brown)

and i took them to the vet last night, he fixed the beak on the male, and said that the male had some sort of desease on him.. something called mage or something like that (he also showed me the male up close... god.. he looked so bad), the vet showed me some holes on feet and beark, some bad feathers.. and some stuff on the males feet. He also said that the male could of passed it to the female, thats why i had to go grab the female, fortunatly the female was fine, but he still gave her something just incase. now i need to bring them in 2 weeks for a follow up. also the vet clipped the wings on the male and will clip the female in 2 weeks.

Is there no way for me to tame the birds? i want to let them out of the cage and i want them to stop fearing me.

i think the trip to the vet got the birds upset, when i got them back home they just turned their backs to me and sat there whole evning without making a noise.
But it seems better now, they are looking my way again and playing with the toys.

also i think the male is alot better now, he eats more open now, without fearing me if i come close.

Question -
yes, its a male female, and yes they do biker time to time.
But i think the male is more stressted out, he never really does anything, the female is the one who plays with the toys and eats more often, and i see the female picking on the male more often then the other way around (i think i only saw the male start the bikering once, when i put in the treats.) and male is more frightend of me then the female.(a bit of history) But i have no idea why, i had the male longer then the female (i got the male and female at first, then a week after the female died for unknown reasons, then i replacesd the female with another one becouse i had a waranty with the petstore, unfortunatly that female died too just couple weeks after, (people at the petstore were angry) finally i got the female i have now.
And i actually think that the female eats more than the male, when i got the female she was the same size as the male, now shes alot biger.
and thanks for the link to your site, it has alot of info, that i hope can help me to tame my birds and care for them properly (they been on an all seed diet for a year, never had the nails or beaks shortened, (and for some reason are scared to take a bath, the few times i provided water)and been sitting in the cage for a year
also i am gona see if i can get their wings cliped to help me tame them
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Sorry, 2 more questions, i got a box (small cardboard, with holes) i got the bird in at the pet store, can i use that as a transport? and second, should i seperate my birds? (someone else said that the beak problem is a result of fighting)(same person also said that the beak might heal by its self)
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Whats the easiest way to take and transport my bird to the vet? he is not tamed and jumps away as soon as i come close to the cage, should i just grab him?
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Unfortunatly i tried that website already, there are no avian veterinarians in my city or anywere close to it, I will ask around the few vet clinics that are near to me, they might help or know someone who will.
also, do you know how much it would cost to fix the problem? (just a rough estimate will do)

also, how can I tame my budgies and gain their trust?
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Hi, i own 2 budgies and one of them has problems with the beak. A bit of an intro, i got my budgies in a store over a year ago, and they are still scared of me, they will not fly out of the cage even if i leave it open, they try to hide when ever i come close, jump if i even move in the room> they are terrified of fruits and vegtebles for some reason and wont eat anything but the standard bird food. My budgies always scream at each other and before always tried to fight each other and push the other one off, but now that seemed to stop.

recently i noticed that one of the budgies started sitting side ways and hides his left side when ever i try to look, finally when he tried to get up higher in the cage i saw that part of his lower beak sort of broke off and is going the other way
can you help me fix that?

Answer -
Hi, Alex.  Thanks for posting!

No, I cannot help you fix your budgies' beak problem.  You need to take the bird to an avian veterinarian ASAP...not a cat/dog vet, but an exotic animal vet that is trained in treating birds.  Here's a website to help you find an avian vet in your city:  www.aav.org.  If you need more help here, let me know.  If you don't get this problem fixed, it will likely affect his eating and drinking and you could lose this bird.

The reason your budgies act the way they do is because they were not handfed when they were babies, i.e., they weren't imprinted on humans when babies (they aren't tame).  Also, since birds prefer other birds to humans, the fact that you have 2 birds together makes this situation worse...the best pet birds are single birds in the home.  Birds won't eat anything they don't recognize as food, so if you're putting food in front of your budgies that they've never seen before, this is why they won't eat it!  You have to keep offering a variety of foods to your birds every day...they will eventually try the new foods.  An all-seed diet is not good at all...seed is high in fat and has little to no nutritional value.  You need to change their diet.  Please visit my website for more information on this and more information in general on how to care for your birds:  http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/birdinfo/index.html

Come back with any additional questions.

Chrys

Answer -
Hi again, Alex.

What you can do is look in your local newspapers, telephone book, etc., for parrot breeders.  Call and ask for a reference to an avian vet.  You could also try local cat/dog vets and ask if they can provide a reference to an avian vet.  If there is a local veterinary teaching school, you could call and ask for their help.  Also, a local zoo might be able to help out.  Someone in your area must treat exotic animals, such as snakes, iguanas, and birds.  You may have to do some research and travel some to get to an avian vet, but this is what you need to do.  You might even try the local humane society or wildlife service.

The cost for the service would depend on what the problem is and what has to be done to correct it.  Also, avian vets charge different fees depending on the area and how many vets might be in the same office.  

My website reference in my previous response has the information you need to help you work with your budgies.  I won't try to sell you anything on my site...it just contains a lot of information about parrots in general (your budgies are parrots).  If you don't understand something or are confused with any of the information, come back and I'll help more.

It's very important you have your budgie checked out ASAP.  If your budgie has problems eating and drinking, s/he will die.

Chrys

Answer -
Hi, Alex.

Since your keet isn't tame, you'll need to use a net to catch s/he in it's cage.  This can be a bird net or a fish net (fish nets are cheaper).  You can also "towel" your keet by using a wash cloth or dish towel or something similar.  Put your hand inside the cloth and grab your keet up as you would with your bare hands.  However, don't squeeze too tightly or you could cut off her breathing (I've seen this happen).  You'll probably get biten either way you try, but this is part of owning a parrot.  You'll need to transport the bird in a pet taxi (this is a transport cage made especially for animals) or something where the bird can have proper air circulation and be safe as well (you could transport s/he in it's cage if cage is small enough).  If wing flight feathers haven't been clipped, you'll need to be especially careful that s/he doesn't get loose or you'll never catch your bird.  Once at the vet's office, they can handle the bird from there.  You might ask the vet to clip your bird's flight feathers so you can work with your bird easier.  Clipping the flight feathers just keeps the bird from gaining altitude when s/he flies so s/he can't flee from you...clipping doesn't stop a bird from flying.  Clipping also does not hurt the bird and it isn't cruel.  The feathers grow back when the bird molts.

I hope you've been successful finding a bird vet.

Chrys



Answer -
Hi again, Alex.  I don't mind the questions....that's why I'm here!

Yes, that box would be fine.  All birds that live in the same cage bicker at times.  They might fight over who sits in the highest spot in the cage, they might fight over food, they might fight over toys, etc., etc.  It's when one of the birds draws blood or injures the other that you would need to separate them.  You would also need to separate them if one picks on the other so badly all the time that the one is stressed out all the time.  Are these a male/female pair, 2 females, 2 males?  Do you know how to sex them?  If not, let me know and I'll help you figure this out.

The beak might heal itself, but I don't know this because I can't see the beak myself in order to judge!  The other person who told you this shouldn't have made that statement without actually seeing the problem.  And even then, a lot of beak problems need avian veterinarian intervention.  If the beak has broken off and is growing in the wrong direction, you need to have an avian vet take a look to see if permanent damage has been done and/or if the vet can fix it before it gets worse.  It will not go back in the right direction all by itself if it's growing wrong.  Also, if part of the beak has broken off, the beak might need to be trimmed.  You don't want to try to fix this yourself either because you can cause more harm than good if you don't know what you are doing.  Believe me...I've raised parrots for over 17 years and have much experience with beak problems in parrots.  If you let the beak problem go and it becomes worse, your keet may not  be able to eat and drink and will die; it's as simple as this.  Just like other illnesses/disease/injuries, you need to tend to this early enough so that it can be fixed instead of waiting until later when it can't be fixed.  Waiting could cost you more money in the long run.

Chrys

Answer -
Hi, Alex.

I'm concerned about the birds dying shortly after you bring them home.  Either they are ill when you buy them or they are becoming ill once they are at your home.  You should always quarantine a new bird for at least 30 days if you have other birds in your home.  This is because most illnesses take 10-14 days to incubate.  Stress as a result of a move to a new home can compromise a bird's immune system, which can allow illness to take over.  A 30-day quarantine period helps to ensure any illness is identified.  I would not recommend purchasing any more birds at that particular pet store.  Try to buy from a parrot breeder if at all possible.

Are you SURE of the sexes of these birds?  I ask because it sounds like the one you think is female is male and the one you think is male is female (based on the behavior that you describe).  Males will have blue ceres (the area above the beak where the nostrils are located); females will have brown/beige/white/tan.  

If you believe the male isn't acting like he should be, perhaps he's caught an illness from one of the females that passed away.  You need to keep a close eye on this because birds hide their illnesses until they can't hide them anymore.  Then when we notice they are sick, it's usually too late to help them.  You need to learn how to identify potential illness in your birds before it can get a grip on them.  This information is on my website.

If a parrot wasn't handfed as a baby, it will not be tame.  Also, when they are with other birds, they are happiest and don't need humans.  Therefore, they tend to be untame.  If a bird has been/was in a pet shop for a while, they tend to be nippy/mean because they've had customers of the pet shop poking and prodding them all day long...they learn to fear fingers and hands.  This might be why the male bites, unless something happened after you got him home to make him afraid of you.

Take one step at a time, Alex!  Have you gotten an avian vet appointment yet?!

Chrys

Answer -
I'm so glad you got your birds to the vet.  Can you tell me exactly what the vet said your male bird has...parrots don't get mange (or mage).  Does scaly mites sound familiar?  

Yes, a trip to the vet can be stressful for birds, especially if he put them on medication, too.  They will be fine.  They might act mad at you for taking them, but they've get over it!  It's like a parent taking their human child to the doctor for a shot or like taking your dog or cat to the vet.  My dogs/cats know when we pull in the vets parking lot!

I can't guarantee you can tame your keets.  You'll have to let them get well first.  It depends on your knowledge and skills as a trainer and how they respond to your training.  If you wanted tame keets, you should have bought tame keets!  You'll need to work with each one separately.  Take the one you want to work with into a neutral room with minimal distractions, where s/he can't see/hear the other keet and where s/he can't see or get to it's cage.  Place the bird down on the floor, couch, bed, etc., and just start interacting with the bird.  You have to have your bird's undivided attention when working with it or you should stop the session and resume later.  This means some sessions might only be a minute or 2 long and other sessions might be 5 minutes.  You need to do this with each keet separately as many times per day as you can.  You need to keep their flight feathers clipped while your are working with them so they can't get away from you.  You'll continue to have problems with 2 birds in your home because birds prefer other birds to humans.  Once you get this far, let me know and I'll help you with the next steps.  

You can let your birds out of their cage now (well, after they are well), but you'll have no control over them.  They fear your hands/fingers because they were never imprinted on humans when they were babies (i.e., they weren't handfed).  You have to show them that your fingers/hands are nothing to fear...this will take time and patience.  Taming them WILL NOT happen over night.  It might take months and months or maybe never.  It just depends on a lot of factors!

Chrys
-----Answer-----
Hi again, Alex.

Mange doesn't seem right to me...I've never heard of it in a bird.

If you want to tame your bird, you have to take it out of the cage!  Otherwise, there's no way to tame it.  I mean talking with it through the cage wire isn't going to make it tame.  Putting your hand in the cage is only going to scare the bird and cause it to not trust you and to bite you.  You've either got to get that bird into another room or put the other bird into another room with the cage(s) when you work with one bird.  If one bird can see the other, it will only want to get back to the other bird.  Once the other bird is out of the room and all cages are gone from the room, you can just let the bird out in the room where it lives, either it coming out by itself or you'll need to take it out.  However, you are correct in that this process has to be as stressless on the bird as possible.

A neutral room would be one where the bird doesn't live on a daily basis, one in which there are no other birds, one where you can shut the curtains or blinds so the bird isn't distracted by activity outside the window, one with no mirrors, etc. etc.

This is why taming a bird that isn't tame takes much time and patience.  Yes, of course, the bird will want to mess around in that room at first.  You may not have his attention all the time.  However, you can't work with your birds unless you can get their attention.  Yes, just let the bird out.  He'll fly around for a while, get tired, then hopefully land somewhere.  When he does land, this is when you talk with him, just sit with him, etc.  This is why I recommend you clip their flight feathers...so they can't fly away from you when you try working with them.  When they learn they can't get away from you, often times a bird settles down and works with it's human.

I know how you feel about your birds, Alex.  I commend you for wanting to be a good bird owner.  However, you should have started out with hand tamed birds, and I would not have recommended you purchase 2 birds.  One bird in a home makes the best pet bird.  

Ensure your bird's cage is large enough so they have plenty of room to move around in since they spend most of their time in it.

You have to let your birds out of their cage in order to tame them.  You can't be afraid of being biten either!  I know it hurts to get biten, but it only hurts for a little bit.  Perhaps you'll need to use gloves or a perch when moving your birds from room to room.  I wouldn't even start anything until your birds wing flight feathers have been clipped and they have a clean bill of health from your bird vet in 2 weeks.  It's just too much stress on them to do all of this at the same time.

Chrys
-----Answer-----
Good morning, Alex!  I apologize...I don't mean to be hard on you.  Most people don't know this about buying birds at a pet store.

Are you sure this is an avian vet you are working with?  I ask this because a good avian vet would not have made the statement about clipping only 1 wing.  Very definitely DO NOT let the vet clip only 1 wing.  Ensure both are clipped at the same time.  If only 1 wing is clipped, when the bird tries to fly, it will be off balance and will just spin in circles.  Could result in the bird injuring itself, etc., but will also result in the bird being more frightened because flying in circles isn't natural.

Poor little bird!  He was probably starving!  I'm soooo very glad you came to this site for guidance because your keet may not have survived much longer, and I'm VERY glad you followed my advice and took them to the vet.  A lot of keet owners wouldn't have spent the money to see a vet for a bird that probably cost less than $20.  He's not well yet, but well on his way.  You'll see a big difference in your birds.  Also, may make bonding with you easier if they feel well.

Keep in touch and I'll help you as best I can once you're keets are past this illness issue.

Chrys    


-----Answer-----
Actually, the term budgie isn't really correct.  What I believe you have are american parakeets.  Budgies are actually known as english budgies.  Budgies originally came from Australia back in the 1800's and were introduced to Europe.  Australia is mainly desert area, so this part is correct.  A form of this bird was then introduced to the USA and was called a parakeet.  Parakeet actually means bird with a long tail and can refer to several species of parrots.  English budgies are actually a different type of bird.  Bring up Google on your ISP.  Type in:  English Budgies.  The 3 bird pics you will see are english budgies.  They probably look different in the head/face than the birds you have.  Here's more information on keets/budgies:  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1840&articleid=2269

I disagree with this avian vet.  You should keep both wings clipped for the reasons I gave you before.  If you don't, when the bird flies, it will fly in circles and the bird can't control it's flight.  With both wings clipped, the bird can control it's flight although it won't be able to gain altitude.  These are your birds and you can tell the vet to do whatever you want with them...I recommend you tell him to clip both sets.  This is from 17+ years of breeding/raising keets/budgies.

It's not hard to clip feathers...you could easily do this yourself, but you'd have to hold your birds!

I'd clip the male's other wing feathers the same as the one side that's clipped.

Chrys
-----Answer-----
I wouldn't ask the vet...I'd tell him you want both your birds wing flight feathers clipped versus just one side.  It will have to be your decision whether to visit another vet...depends on what confidence you have in the current vet.  You could call and ask if s/he's a certified avian veterinarian...certified avian vets have several years of bird-specific training (other vets do not have this much specialized training).

I live in Clayton, Ohio (10-15 miles NW of Dayton).  Anywhere near you?

Chrys

Answer
Alex - Try seeing if a local pet shop will clip your bird's wing feathers (or a local parrot breeder).  Around here they only charge about $5 to do this.  Save your money and do it yourself!  My website gives instructions and website links to show you how to do this.

Chrys