Expert: Alan Kahn - 7/9/2004

Question
After watching your video I was inspired! I have discovered that a downward double and inward double is another, fairly easy, four way elbow strike. Have you ever tried this combo. Also do you release videos or DVD's viewable in England as I will be moving there soon and would love to obtain your training programmes.
Many thanks Stuart Prestidge

Answer
Hello Stuart  

( VERY LONG.... PRINT THIS OFF )

AHA!...  How wonderful to meet that rare intrepid speed bag fan with the insight and wisdom to master the known skills, then contemplate and expand on that body of knowledge! Only one other time has someone contacted me for any reason on the speed bag that immediately sent me to the bag and tried something I had not done before!  After trying your suggestion on the bag I also researched my original writings when developing and experimenting on many things ( more on that later).

Your inspiration is more than rewarding, it is actually very personal - for now YOU know how I felt when I came up such things myself. In fact, that is how I discovered any of the FOUR WAY elbow strikes, and the Reverse-Side Double Punch (R-SDP)! Never known or seen by me before, but through study, experimentation, and a little luck, They were created and made sense. In fact, I had already sent the manuscript for the book to a printer for publication, and THEN found the Side-Reverse Double Punch (S-RDP), only because I missed on an "super advanced combination", and the only two punches that hit were the side single and reverse single after one rebound. Hence, the Side-Reverse Double Punch (S-RDP).

Since you obviously understand my system of naming techniques and creating combinations, and are of advanced insight and ability - YOU are laying claim to the DOWN & IN FOUR WAY ELBOW STRIKE. Yes that is what it would be called IF it were a technique. I had done similiar things but not exactly that one.

SO Stuart, Let's examine your new Four Way Technique suggestion. I am not sure if you have The Speed Bag Bible Book and read Chapter 10 ( Advanced Combinations) Pages 117 - 120. If you DO NOT have the book, or have  VIDEO #4  of my  FOUR TAPE SERIES, which covers  "advanced combinations",  and this information, it will be new to you. The theory of this discussion is all covered there.

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MY system of techniques or combinations is based on the four parts connecting in one SMOOTH motion that normally has the body motion and follow through naturally set up and make it repeatable with the other arm leading.  Hence the Front Double Punch (FDP) fist connections and body motions naturally set up repeating this fist order the other way... a "L-R" FDP automatically sets up another "R-L" FDP, and the two can make a nice flowing combination. the same for the Out & Down 4-way. The end arm position and body set up allow this technique to repeat itself. Left lead, to Right lead.

this is specifically covered in the book, pages 117 - 120. The Speed Bag is located at the Center of the Body and all motions either move "in" toward the center, or "out" from the center. All techniques are either IN or OUT motions, and they can all be determined from the two home punches that create the basic rhythm, the Front Circle Punch (FCP) and the Front Straight Punch (FSP). The FCP is and OUT motion, and the FSP is an IN motion.

I personally found this movement of the basic rhythm, and the order of the OUT & IN motions dictates what is SMOOTH and NATURAL. The OUT motion of one arm is naturally followed by the IN motion of the other, [ L-FCP is followed by R-FSP in the Basic Rhythm ] and the IN motion of one arm is naturally followed by the OUT motion of the SAME ARM. [ the R-FSP is naturally followed by the R-FCP in the Basic Rhythm ]. Think about it, you would never naturally find a L-FSP followed by a R-FSP.

Try it while your read. The body posture at the END of the LEFT-Front Straight Punch (L-FSP) makes it unnatural to follow with a RIGHT Front Straight Punch (R-FSP). TO ME it is simply unnatural to have an INWARD motion of one arm followed by the INWARD motion of the other. You would never do a L-FSP ''' R-FSP combination because the body position at the end of each technique makes this very awkward. Possible, yes. Smooth and efficient, no.

Since you are competent in the INWARD Elbow strikes (IDES), try this: While you read, Do a LEFT ARM Inward Double Elbow (L-IDES) and follow it with a RIGHT ARM Inward Double Elbow (R-IDES). Ugh oh...  Do you see the problem? the left arm and shoulder are now blocking the natural flow of the RIGHT arm inward motion. The leading part of IDES is a FSP, so this is the same as trying to follow a L-FSP with a R-FSP.  It is very difficult to do on three rebounds, let alone ONE rebound required to make it a technique. That is not to say you can not do it, it just isn't natural body motion. So, in my mind that eliminates the IN & IN four way Elbow strike motion as a TECHNIQUE, however you may consider it as a combination if you can do it.

Now, examine the DownWard Elbow motions. the Downward Double Elbow Strike (DDES) naturally replaces the Front Straight Punch (FSP) in the Basic Rhythm. Although the Elbow connects moving Downward on the bag, the body motion and swing direction is actually INWARD. that is why the natural joining of the L-FCP and the R-DDES easily creates the Downward-Triple Elbow Strike (DTES). the natural flow of this technique fits perfectly in with the body motions, balance and follow throughs of the BASIC RHYTHM.

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So, Stuart, Let's examine the motions of  YOUR suggested Downward-Double (inward motion) and the Inward Double (Inward) motion. The Leading ARM (DDES)comes down, which is INWARD, and the second arm (IDES)is also INWARD. That would be the same as a L-FSP and a R-FSP. Possible? Yes. Natural in flow? not really.

NOW do your suggestion with your "Left Arm" leading in the with the Downward double. What does it naturally follow? when I do it, it only follows a Right Front Circle Punch (FCP) naturally. that is because the body posture and set up for a DDES only follows the FCP of the other arm. So we do the Down & IN 4-WAY. Not really a smoothly coordinated motion for me ( two Inward motions..)

Now let's examine the END of your suggested technique. After the Right-INWARD Double Elbow connects (R-IDES), your right elbow is now across your body and your weight is shifted INWARD with the blow. Can you naturally repeat YOUR suggested technique the other way, with a RIGHT arm leading after three rebounds?? (''' = 3 rebounds)

L-D&I_4way ''' R-D&I_4way.

Not likely.  That is because your RIGHT arm will now have to recover from the R-IDES position to lead the other way with a RIGHT leading technique of R-DDES.

For ME, it is NOT a natural motion to follow a R-INWARD Double Elbow Strike (R-IDES) with a R-DOWNWARD Double Elbow
Strike (R-DDES). try this combination while your read: ( ''' = 3 rebounds)

R-IDES ''' R-DDES

Very Awkward to say the least, but that is what is necessary to have your newly suggest motions follow each other.

It would be similiar to suggest the two Front Straight Punches (FSP) also combine after one rebound to create another Front Double Punch. It is possible on a skill level, but not practical as a technique or for smooth combinations. and if it were a technique, what would it be called? How would you know it I was saying a FCP ' FSP double punch or a FSP ' FSP double punch?

In truth, I had written something about following a LEFT- Downward Double Elbow ( L-DDES) with a RIGHT-Front Straight Punch (R-FSP):  it looks like this:

(L-DDES) ' ' ' (R-FSP).  

this is almost the same as your suggestion ( you added the R-Elbow..) This was written in my "Advanced Combination" notes. BUT I dropped the idea, since it was two Inward motions that do not naturally follow each other. YES they are possible. But not practical to me. By the way - You can follow your suggested technique with ANY technique that follows the Inward Double Elbow Strike. ( not many do...)   

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I explained all that above to say this; Combining two techniques after ONE rebound doesn't always create a new technique, but will create an Advanced Combination.

remember 3 = ODD and 1=ODD. I would suggest that your DOWN & IN 4WAY Elbow strike suggestion creates what I call an "Advanced Front Punching" combination. This combination is not naturally repeatable the other way. the end position with the elbow and weight IN to the bag would most naturally be followed by an OUTward motion of Outward Double Elbow Strike (ODES) or a Front Circle Punch by the same inward Arm. Even that feels awkward [ doing a R-IDES to a R-FCP)
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there are many more ways to combine fists and elbows from all around the bag that are POSSIBLE but not necessarily  "Name-able"  or practical. For instance, Try this: Follow a L-Front Straight Punch (L-FSP) with a Right-Side Single Punch (R-SSP) after 3 rebounds. It works. And it works on ONE rebound. on ONE rebound it would be another way to do a Side Double Punch. Not the most efficient way, but possible. Now, what would I call it to differentiate it from the other Side Double Punch, of Front Circle + Side Single.?? How could I explain it so the reader, or the viewer can differentiate what I am doing?  At some point, I had to draw a line to it, or the book would be 1000 pages, and the videotapes couldn't possible cover all the variations that the viewer could comprehend.
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But For YOU, the wonders of many more combinations await. I sense your inquistive side will discover many of these that I have also, but have not written about or shown, simple because they are SO MANY variations. Keep experimenting with it!

I have people in ENGLAND who use and watch my videotapes or DVD's all the time. Several are getting quite good. I suggest you contact me at my email address to get more information about my programs. I would love to get them to you. My email is listed below. (remove the part that says "remove this". )

Sorry this was so long, but I did examine your suggestion, and thank you for the new combination I would never had thought of...

sincerely,

Alan Kahn
author, the Speed Bag Bible
email:  speedbag(remove this)@hot.rr.com

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