Expert: Ralph Onesti - 7/24/2011

Question
QUESTION: Hi Ralph,
I followed your advice from my earlier question regarding mixers. I purchased a cast iron skillet and put it on the bottom shelf of the oven. (I was also lucky enough to find a pump-type spray bottle). I removed the top stone (I was using two, one to bake on and the other to help regulate the heat).  I made two loaves of bread and steamed them as per your suggestion. WOW! What a difference. They were the best loaves I have baked. The only problem was that the oven when set to 400 to preheat, went to well above 450 (my oven thermometer only goes up to 450). I turned the oven down to 350 and left the door open until the temperature came down to 350. I put the two loaves in and steamed when the thermometer read 350. Oven spring was the best I have ever had with this recipe. Crust development was great.  The only issue was that the bread cooked too quickly on the bottom. (Crust a little too thick and a thin layer of dense texture just above the crust). I cannot put the second stone back in the oven. My oven is 18" wide, 16" deep, 16" high (interior measurements).  I have attached a picture. The cast iron skillet is on bottom shelf. The stone I bake on is on the middle shelf (cannot move it lower because of the skillet). I bought the smallest skillet I could find. The oven is electric with coils on the top and bottom. At this point I am ready to buy a new oven. Do you have any suggestions on either working with this one or on a new one?  Thank you again for your time and expertise.

ANSWER: Well Linda...

Don't thank me...you did it.

In home ovens, making free form loaves (not in a pan) I usually suggest a baking temp of 440F.

I also suggest letting the stone pre-heat for about 30-45 minutes.

So here's what we do...

The loaves are proofed and ready to go.

There is a cup of water in the microwave which has been heated on high for about 2 minutes.

The loaves are then scored.

Both the stone rack and the cast iron pan rack are pulled out.

On go the loaves onto the stone...push the rack in.

Pour the cup of hot water into the cast iron pan...push the rack in...close the door.

Do NOT open that door for at least 10 minutes or until you see some signs of color on the loaf.

That meant the crust has begun to form and there will be no more oven spring.

Now it's time to open the oven and rotate those loaves.

Probably another 15 minutes of bake will do it. I know the loaves are done when they are firm to the squeeze, or on larger loaves, you detect a real hollow sound when you thump the bottom of the loaf.

You are not getting enough steam from that pump bottle.

I think you'll find that cup of water in the skillet will do the trick for you.

How many loaves do you want to bake at one time?

Congratulations by the way...you're on your way to becoming a bread head!

I would love to see your formula for your bread, and exactly the steps you use to get there.

Let's play!

happy baking,

Ralph

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Ralph,
Thank you again for your time and expertise.  I will email you the formula and my process. My oven is old and unreliable. If I try to bake above 375, it goes up beyond what the thermometer can register (my old thermometer went up to 550 and it would be hotter than that). I have thought about having it calibrated but I can't seem to justify the expense. (I spent alot of money when I first moved in replacing all my bakeware because nothing I owned would fit in such a small oven). It is difficult to clean, and always sets the smoke detector off if I bake oven 325. It also burns alot of food. (I make cakes and brownies in the countertop oven now). I would rather put the money towards a new oven. I would definitely like to be able to bake more than two loaves at a time, six at one time would be very nice. Baking 30 loaves of bread in one day will take me 15 hours in this oven.  (That's not a typical baking for me, maybe something I would do once a month).  I am generally making two loaves every couple of days. I eat some, I share some. I feel like I have to be miserly with my sharing though and I don't like that. I would like to be able to make four loaves every couple of days but the oven only takes two.
By the way, I am about halfway through the Hamelman book. You are right, it is the only book needed about bread.
As for the pump bottle, I thought this one was really great. It is not like the garden-type "mister" spray bottles. It has a handle on top to pump the water and then a lever on the handle that can lock in the spray position. A very solid stream of water comes out. (Good thing I tried it in the bathroom first to get a feel for how it works). I will need to get a piece of pipe to extend the stream. The one time I have used it, there seemed to be a lot of steam (my reaction was "steam is not for the faint of heart"). I am baking some bread today and will try your suggestion of the cup of water.
Thank you again for your help.

ANSWER: Hi Linda:

Well...if you can do a new over...bag that old thing!

You know...if you have room in your house...I would consider upgrading to a smaller size commercial oven with steam. If you're going to make money at this it may be justified.

Take a look at the American Baking Systems stuff, (ABS). They have a range of sizes and that may work out way better. If you stay electric, there's no venting.

I received your formula and promise to take a hard look...we'll talk!

No, steam in not for the faint of heart...but if you want good oven spring, you really can't do without.

Local Italian bakers who use brick ovens without steam get a characteristic thick crusted, grey bread...I prefer the more European style.

However, you must remember to vent the steam after color forms, and for the home baker, that would happen went you rotate the loaves.

Back to the Hamelman book. I love Jeffrey, and he's a great friend. And...he is the undisputed best! You don't win the Coup de Monde in France by being lucky!!!

You need to view his book in sections:

1. the first part is for the  technically minded...it's chock full of info, but usually throws most people off...use it as you need it like a reference manual.

2. The middle part is the formula section. Do NOT start until you have read the entire formula and all accompanying sidebars.

3. The end is the decorative and reference part.

OK...back to you...you're right...NO measuring cups...weight only. It's the only way to make sure you are consistent from bake to bake.

Dough temperature...again...white doughs are different than say rye doughs. The desired dough temperature was not plucked from the air. It is the temperature at which that particular dough ferments best.

So you will see that the white doughs like it around 76F, while the ryes like it around 80 or so.

You sound serious...so I'll be harder on you...lol

There are NO short cuts in bread baking. Someone asked me if bread baking was an art or a science...I said..."well...of course it is".

And it takes practice. And as my friend and mentor Chef Hamelman says...if you have a great bake day...GREAT...if you don't...there's always tomorrow.

And...naming your breads is great...!!!!

Bread baking can break down in many places: Dough temperature, hydration, pre-ferments, bulk-fermenting, stretch and folds, proofing, baking...anywhere along the road stuff can to terribly wrong.

When I come up with a new formula, I of course start with an idea, I have experience so I'll know about where to start the hydration, then I make and bake. If I don't like the outcome, after thinking, I'll change ONE thing at a time. If you change more than one and it didn't work...you won't know which was right or wrong.

You and I will have fun.

I'll look at your formula and let you know what I think. But remember...it's YOUR formula.

You know why you can't find good bread in the stores???...cause bread ain't sexy! You have to have an aching passion to make good bread day after day...like art. The end result may be great, but no one appreciates what went on during the process!

Happy baking!!!!!

Ralph

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Ralph,
I will look into the ovens. I have decided to put the mixer on hold (I did check them out). I can knead bread by hand. I can't bake it by hand. So I think right now, in my case the oven comes first. I did bake some bread last night using the cup of water in the skillet like you suggested. I didn't get alot of oven spring but this was the first time I was baking this formula. (I just discovered white whole wheat flour, that it is not the same as white flour#. The crust did not darken as much as I am used to. #Internal temperature was 215# but then I am used to baking darker breads#. It tastes good, no sign of being undercooked. I did bake it in loaf pans which I normally don't do.
I think part of what attracts me to bread baking is that it is art and science. #My day job is science-based, my avocation is art#. That is why the formula I sent you contains vinegar, because I had read that it helps with leavening. Since the bread contains so much grains, it needed all the help it can get. Now that I have learned more and changed the process #soaker/mash and delayed fermentation), I tried leaving out the vinegar. Good results in terms of rise, bad results in terms of flavor #friend who is "addicted" to this bread likes it better with the vinegar). I think a sourdough starter might be useful for this one. I think the alternative flours I use may not have enough acidity. (I finally found pH testing paper and plan to test the various flours.) I agree with Jeffery's comment that the flavor of bread should not come from additives like vinegar. I do not use dough conditioners except for ascorbic acid (from freeze-dried, crystallized oranges-100% natural). That is only in the bread because of the damage that the grains do to the gluten structure.
In reading Jeffrey's book, I started with the Appendix first, then read the first section and am now reading through all the formulas. Then when I am done reading, I will go back and read it again. He is very humble. He mentions the bread winning the Coup de Monde. Later he mentions that he was Caption of the Team at the Coup de Monde but leaves one to connect the dots. What a perfect job he has now, teaching one week and passing on his knowledge and three weeks doing what he loves, baking bread.
As for changing formulas, I do take a scientific approach like you. I change one thing, assess the impact and decide what to do from there.
I use my measuring cups as scoops now. Great for transferring flour from the bag to the storage container.
I am having fun. I hope you are too.
Happy Baking!
Linda

Answer
OK...

The only argument I have is in time savings...

Kneading by hand is a killer!

If you can't find a spiral mixer you can afford, I'm guessing you can find a planetary...20 quart...that will do just fine!!!

Vinegar will affect the yeast big time! And will "tighten" the dough considerably.

Happy Baking!