Expert: Alex Wilding - 8/19/2008

Question
QUESTION: I have read from Buddhist literature that when a person passes away the stream of consciousness from the old body enters a new body or appropriate medium and continues on with the cycle of life. I have also read that this stream of consciousness cannot think or reason outside of a body.  

What I would like to know is this: How can this be a stream of consciousness if it can’t think or reason outside of the body (the time period between death and re-birth)?  According to the dictionary consciousness is "An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation." To be cognitive there has to be the ability to think and reason.
 
If this stream of consciousness or mind stream or whatever it is called can’t think or reason outside of the body then how can there be consciousness?




ANSWER: Dear AL,
I have not myself seen any suggestion that "consciousness cannot think or reason outside of a body", but there are two things that may be giving that impression.
One is that it is clear that the *kind* of thinking, reasoning, feeling, and so on that is possible is highly conditioned by whatever body may be involved.
The second is that it is sometimes said that even in the "in-between" state, there is a kind of mental body that is created out of habitual needs. So in that sense the consciousness could be said to be relying on a body. But it is said that this is very unstable, and it is hard to stay mentally focussed.
You should also of course bear in mind that quite a wide range of views on these topics are represented within Buddhism. For instance, bearing your last paragraph in mind, there are some schools of Buddhism who believe that a new birth starts at the same instant that the old one fails, which is again a view in which there is no disembodied consciousness.
Where did you come across these views?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Alex:

I got this view from Justin Choo one of the All Experts.  See all 3 “Brain Malfunction Questions” under “View Past Answers”.  I am not sure if he was just expressing his personal opinion, and was not sure of the accuracy of his opinion, or this is what he actually believes. Could be a bit of both. Perhaps I misunderstood what he said.

It is interesting that you say “there are (some) schools of Buddhism who believe that a new birth starts at the same instant that the old one fails”   I guess not all Buddhists are not on the same page when it comes to this matter.   It would be nice to know what is accurate otherwise confusion could result.

I wanted to delve into other aspects concerning  this matter with Justin, but I got the feeling that he was uncomfortable about discussing it so I stopped.  He didn’t even post my last question to him.
 
See quotes from myself and Justin below:

Question:

About the mind (stream of consciousness), is it able to reason and think outside of the body? Like when a person dies or the body is in a comatose state. Even when the brain malfunctions is a part of the mind stream operating outside of the body? I know in the Tibetan tradition they talk about ghosts and hell realms, kind of scary. Does the mind stream become a ghost when the body dies?

Answer:
     
The stream of consciousness never stops. As a human being, this stream needs a medium to function properly. With the brain malfunctioning, I don't think this stream can "think and reason outside of the body".

AL          





ANSWER: Hi AL,
You say "I guess not all Buddhists are not on the same page when it comes to this matter", and that is very true. There are two different questions involved here - one is the question of "what is Buddhist teaching", and this question is answered by reference to texts held authoritative by various schools. The other is the question of "what really happens", where reason plays a bigger part, and the teachings of various traditions can only be suggestive.
So when you then go on to say "It would be nice to know what is accurate otherwise confusion could result", I'm not 100% sure in what sense you mean it - accurate in the sense of according with a specific tradition of teaching? Or accurate in the sense of being a true description of what really happens between lives?
All the best
Alex W


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Alex:

I am referring to what actually happens between death and rebirth.  

I think according to what Justin says there is an in-between state, but it is just is karmic energy that is seeking rebirth with no ability to think or reason outside of the body,  then there are some Buddhists who believe that there is no in-between phase after death, just instant rebirth.  Then you mention that there may be an in-between" state, where there is a kind of mental body that is created out of habitual needs.  You also state that there is a wide range of views on these topics within Buddhism itself.  It gets even more confusing when physics and mediums claim they can communicate with people who have long since passed away. They don’t differentiate between devas and souls from the higher heaven realms. They seem to be able to communicate with any soul on the other side, even with a person that has just recently passed away. Their performances are very impressive, especially when seen on TV.  And what about near death experiences, people who have been pronounced dead having these extraordinary out of body experiences. So much has been written about these subjects. It is so easy to claim something that cannot be proven, wether they be Buddhist or  non Buddhist. One person says one thing and another something else. One very famous psychic said you never return as an animal, and the Buddhists say that this is possible. Of course one has got to be very careful, as not everything is as it appears.  It could all be a big hoax, I honestly don’t know.   I am just trying to be an objective observer trying to decern what the truth is. I don’t want to believe in something on blind faith, or because I prefer one person’s version over another or I like a particular religion.  I want to go above all that. I want to know what the truth is. How can I determine that for myself?

Thanks

AL  

Answer
Hi Al,
I think you have put it very clearly - there are lots and lots and lots of views out there. Even restricting yourself to Buddhist views doesn't make things simple. The whole thing is fascinating, but if you are not going to accept the view of one medium, one religion, one sect, one teacher or one book on faith, then I'm afraid you are going to have to accept it - some people have reasons to believe something, but there *is no certainty*.
But that's OK, isn't it?