Expert: Bodhicitta - 1/14/2007

Question
If there were no free will(as a lot of contemporary scientists think, the whole story of trying to awaken to buddha-nature (richt effort etc) makes no sense because everything would run automatically

On rebirth,I'm still looking for a model(picture etc) of what really happens when after enlightenment,mind does not attach again into one of the 6 realms(human,animal etc etc)
It's almost like a computer-program that functions differently after enlightenment
I'd like comments on this
Personally I think this all has to do with a state of mind.
A lot of people think/perceive inside/out and thus experience death/rebirth etc related to (for instance) bodily forms
An enlightened person looks outside in,e.g seeiing ones-"self' as just another pattern into the totality of the cosmic kaleidoscope. Looking this way,there's no death(of totality) and thus no rebirt. There only is continuous transformation
Please comment
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The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
1.Does Buddhism support free will? e.g Dependent Origination looks like determinism
2.How(underlying principles) can one stop being reborn(I know the answer is no-karma) but how can I "picture"this ??Does not the enlightened mind also undergo transformation(continuous change) and if rebirth is a non-personal transition,how then can some people remember past life??
Personally I  think the rebirth story is just a moral one to educate/socialize people and that so called reborn lamas just try and control the people by telling them those stories and and promise them better lifes after this(often poor and miserable)one.
Please comment
-----Answer-----
Hi Ruud
Thank you for your questions.What woukld be interesting to know is where you are from, and your background?

Good to see to see you thinking deeply about these fundamental issues. I think this is what Buddhism is about, analysing, meditating and finding out what is true for yourself.

The debate between determinism ( cause and effect), and free-will is well recognised and discussed in early Buddhist texts and by later commentators. A full discussion would
be beyond the scope of these short answers.The exact nature of the explanations might vary somewhat between different schools of Buddhism.But feel free to come back with
further ideas/questions via email or via this forum.Here is a short, maybe somewhat inadaquate answer for you.

Firstly Buddhism is never expounding determinism nor 'free will' -it is somewhere in the middle. There is a complex web of consequences from previous actions (karma) which effect the world we experience . In the
words of one Buddhist teacher if you want to know your
previous lives - just look at your world now!You created it!

Dependent Origination is a very deep and strange thing.

In one discourse Ananda, the Buddha's attendent tells the Buddha he doesn't know why people can't understand Dependent Origination as it sounds so easy. The Buddha responds by saying that it is precisely because it is so difficult to grasp that beings wander endlessly through samsara.Only Buddha's understand it!

Free will is somewhat tricky. You would  have to be very clear what you meant by this. 'Will' implies somewhat ego centric thinking - which Buddhism doesn't expound. But there does appear to be some intention and volition that exists deep in the mind which is beyond
ego. We could call this Buddha volition. Our own confused ideas of what our thoughts are, are perhaps some pale reflection of that.

"Personally I  think the rebirth story is just a moral one to educate/socialize people and that so called reborn lamas just try and control the people by telling them those stories and and promise them better lifes after this(often poor and miserable)one."
I guess your talking about the idea of reincarnate lamas who
beam back in to the world to continue running their monasteries - rather thsn rebirth in general?

..I'm not sure what to say to you about all this!It certainly makes for good movies.

I would say it is all about your direct experience and knowledge. That is what Buddhism is. You meditate, you find out what you can discover that is true about the mind, about Dependent Origination.Don't let anyone else tell you what
is true without checking it out.

Good luck

Bodhicittavira  

Answer
Hi Ruud
<<
Thank you for your questions.What woukld be interesting to know is where you are from, and your background?
>>
You didn't come back with anything on who you were...But nevertheless thanks for your follow-on .. It just helps me
frame and  get a feel for how to answer.

But I see your thinking deeply about it all and framing intelligent questions and seeking models.

<<    
If there were no free will(as a lot of contemporary scientists think, the whole story of trying to awaken to buddha-nature (richt effort etc) makes no sense because everything would run automatically>>
Yes that would seem logically true. There were according to Buddhist texts schools in India that believed there was no free will. It is quite interesting to look into these and
what they believed and why they believed that. But thats a topic beyond my answers and one for a Phd maybe!

It is also very interesting to think what volition means
when ego is not involved. This is a topic for meditation
practice and there are meditations for exploring this.
In fact that is the only way I know that you would find out
anything about this. It is beyond discursive logic by defintion. Another state of mind as you say.

<<
On rebirth,I'm still looking for a model(picture etc) of what really happens when after enlightenment,mind does not attach again into one of the 6 realms(human,animal etc etc)
It's almost like a computer-program that functions differently after enlightenment>>
I think the first problem here is framing the right question.In order to ask what it would mean to be enter into
different relationships with the six realms it would be
necessary to understand what the six realms are. The path of meditation as well as transforming the nature of mind of the
practioner also transforms the six realms themselves.
In scientific terms observer and experiment are intimately linked . So it maybe that the question is not even valid.

The only way to approach these questions is to follow the path of meditation and start the experiment.

<<
Personally I think this all has to do with a state of mind.
A lot of people think/perceive inside/out and thus experience death/rebirth etc related to (for instance) bodily forms
An enlightened person looks outside in,e.g seeiing ones-"self' as just another pattern into the totality of the cosmic kaleidoscope. Looking this way,there's no death(of totality) and thus no rebirt. There only is continuous transformation>>

Well it is beyond inside and outside, beyond birth and death, beyond any model you have, beyond time and space,
existence and non-existence.

I would personally say to you that to use your analogy of the computer program. The software ceases to use the
language it is written in and the computer is seen as never
having existed.This is the state of affairs.

I wish you well Ruud. Keep asking the difficult questions.
The answers lie where they questions are asked. But you must meditate.
Bodhicitta